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Post by 900 Square Feet on May 15, 2025 9:34:07 GMT -5
This was in today's 900 Square Feet email. If you're not a subscriber, please sign up. It's free: bit.ly/3CaYMOyLots of future Olympians, but ... To be clear, I embrace NCAA volleyball teams recruiting and thriving off the success of foreign athletes. I think it enhances the experience for all concerned. This is neither a statement nor a recommendation, but after the recent NCAA beach and NCAA men's championships, there's reason to pause and consider that they were completely dominated by foreign players in what we call our Olympic sports. To wit: TCU's national-championship beach team that beat Loyola Marymount 3-2 in the final was anchored by the No. 1 pair of Spanish Olympians Daniela Alvarez and Tania Moreno. The Horned Frogs also won at No. 3, with Allanis Navas (Puerto Rico) and Sofia Izuzquiza (Spain), and at No. 4 with Ana Vergara (Spain) and Anhelino Khmil (Ukraine). The No. 2 pair, which lost in the NCAA final to Loyola Marymount, was Hailey Hamlett (Bulverd, Texas) and Maria Gonzalez (Puerto Rico) and the No. 5 pair, which also lost, was Stacy Reeves (Irvine, California) and Denie Konstantinova (Latvia). And, yes, i know that Puerto Ricans are Americans, but you get the point. TCU's coach, Hector Gutierrez, is from the Canary Islands and played pro in Spain. I expect him to recruit the best players he can and he's obviously got a great connection to top talent around the world. And while LMU coach John Mayer is American, of his 10 LMU players in the final, seven were foreign. This past Monday Long Beach State swept UCLA to win the NCAA men's title. The star of the team was a freshman from Bulgaria, Moni Nikolov, a setter who was as good as any college men's player we've seen. The leading attacker in the final was Bulgarian Alex Kandev and Canadian Skyler Varga was a key component. Long Beach's coach, Alan Knipe, coached our men's Olympic team in 2012. He, too, should be expected to use those foreign connections to his advantage and he does it well, as do many of his top-level college counterparts. Another good example is Hawai'i, which lost to UCLA in the semifinals. The team's leading attacker was French freshman Adrien Roure and Bulgarian freshman Kristian Titriyski would have been the leader but was lost to season-ending injury after 23 of the team's 32 matches. He still was a second-team All-American. I'm not sure a solution is warranted or even what it would or could be. But I know this: In a country in which we put so much emphasis every four years on winning medals at the Olympics, if the finals of those two sports in America are indicators, we are falling behind. |
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Post by beachnut94 on May 15, 2025 9:52:15 GMT -5
It's going to be a major issue for some programs if Athletic departments don't figure out funding. Schools like Stanford, for sure USC, maybe UCLA, they can't supplement partials with merit money and with 2 of those at 100k a year they won't get foreign players. It's already happening with domestic players with more programs outside California having significantly more funding for athletes.
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Post by eastcoastcowboy on May 15, 2025 9:56:20 GMT -5
This was in today's 900 Square Feet email. If you're not a subscriber, please sign up. It's free: bit.ly/3CaYMOyLots of future Olympians, but ... To be clear, I embrace NCAA volleyball teams recruiting and thriving off the success of foreign athletes. I think it enhances the experience for all concerned. This is neither a statement nor a recommendation, but after the recent NCAA beach and NCAA men's championships, there's reason to pause and consider that they were completely dominated by foreign players in what we call our Olympic sports. To wit: TCU's national-championship beach team that beat Loyola Marymount 3-2 in the final was anchored by the No. 1 pair of Spanish Olympians Daniela Alvarez and Tania Moreno. The Horned Frogs also won at No. 3, with Allanis Navas (Puerto Rico) and Sofia Izuzquiza (Spain), and at No. 4 with Ana Vergara (Spain) and Anhelino Khmil (Ukraine). The No. 2 pair, which lost in the NCAA final to Loyola Marymount, was Hailey Hamlett (Bulverd, Texas) and Maria Gonzalez (Puerto Rico) and the No. 5 pair, which also lost, was Stacy Reeves (Irvine, California) and Denie Konstantinova (Latvia). And, yes, i know that Puerto Ricans are Americans, but you get the point. TCU's coach, Hector Gutierrez, is from the Canary Islands and played pro in Spain. I expect him to recruit the best players he can and he's obviously got a great connection to top talent around the world. And while LMU coach John Mayer is American, of his 10 LMU players in the final, seven were foreign. This past Monday Long Beach State swept UCLA to win the NCAA men's title. The star of the team was a freshman from Bulgaria, Moni Nikolov, a setter who was as good as any college men's player we've seen. The leading attacker in the final was Bulgarian Alex Kandev and Canadian Skyler Varga was a key component. Long Beach's coach, Alan Knipe, coached our men's Olympic team in 2012. He, too, should be expected to use those foreign connections to his advantage and he does it well, as do many of his top-level college counterparts. Another good example is Hawai'i, which lost to UCLA in the semifinals. The team's leading attacker was French freshman Adrien Roure and Bulgarian freshman Kristian Titriyski would have been the leader but was lost to season-ending injury after 23 of the team's 32 matches. He still was a second-team All-American. I'm not sure a solution is warranted or even what it would or could be. But I know this: In a country in which we put so much emphasis every four years on winning medals at the Olympics, if the finals of those two sports in America are indicators, we are falling behind.I look at the data and come away with the exact opposite conclusion. We are not falling behind, we are gaining. But the fruits of those gains are not medals right now, they are the attraction of the best athletes to our development programs for the sport itself, and those fruits will not come to fruition for a few years but they are ABSOLUTELY yielding results right now. Just look at the number of players that are from the recent'ish college crowd of players competing on the beach side of things. It's startling to me and I love it. You always always always grab the best players and give them the best opportunities to compete in YOUR home colleges so that even more young ladies can complete against them and grow.
THiS IS A VERY VERY GOOD THING IMHO
Patience. If you are looking for short term medals, you will lose this game. You cannot tell me that we are falling behind; no sir, not the correct lense or perspective IMHO. There is an innately common thread with regards to the USA teams below. It'll take them another couple of years for some of those teams to pop into the next Elite level, if they make it.
Check out the results of the current Challenger event in China (6 USA teams):
Round of 16
Placette/Richard FRA [18] [Q]
Bock/Lippmann GER [24] [Q]
Vieira/Chamereau FRA [26]
Savvy/Van Winkle USA [29] [Q]
Ciezkowska/Lunio POL [14]
Sh. T. Cao/J. Dong CHN [12]
Bauer/Anderson USA [22]
Serdiuk/Romaniuk UKR [32] [Q]
Round of 24
Toni/DeBerg USA [13] Maruyama/Ishii JPN [19]
Scoles/Denaburg USA [3] Naraphornrapat/Worapeerachayakorn THA [17]
Whitmarsh/Newberry USA [8] Kvedaraite/Kovalskaja LTU [27] [Q]
Charanrutwadee/Woranatchayakorn THA [23] Kraft/Hodel USA [15]
Clancy/Milutinovic AUS [16] Ahtiainen/Lahti FIN [21]
Svozilova/Stochlova CZE [6] Yan X./Zhou M. L. CHN [10]
Kunst/Paul GER [28] [Q] Bélanger/Monkhouse CAN [25] [Q]
J. Zh. Wang/X. Y. Xia CHN [2] Alchin/Johnson AUS [4] |
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Post by eastcoastcowboy on May 15, 2025 10:00:52 GMT -5
You never get better by playing against lesser talent. You get better and programs will get stronger by having better quality players.
Just no 2 ways around it.
Figuring out the funding of scholarships is another hurdle completely and solvable. Not easily solvable but much better than having mediocre players play against mediocre players. You want an example of that: AVP Men's volleyball. It sucks as a breeding ground for making players better.
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gruff
High School
Posts: 7
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Post by gruff on May 15, 2025 11:08:31 GMT -5
I have already wrote my US representative about this issue. This shouldn't be allowed. Scholarships at American universities should be reserved for Americans. If foreign students wants to come here to learn and play, they should have to pay full fare. America first.
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Post by JB Southpaw on May 15, 2025 11:26:59 GMT -5
You never get better by playing against lesser talent. You get better and programs will get stronger by having better quality players. Just no 2 ways around it. Figuring out the funding of scholarships is another hurdle completely and solvable. Not easily solvable but much better than having mediocre players play against mediocre players. You want an example of that: AVP Men's volleyball. It sucks as a breeding ground for making players better. I have already wrote my US representative about this issue. This shouldn't be allowed. Scholarships at American universities should be reserved for Americans. If foreign students wants to come here to learn and play, they should have to pay full fare. America first. I get the argument @ecc, there are other avenues to play against the best. Megan Kraft was playing FIVB all throughout College, USA players could do the same as the Int'l players and take a year off to try for Olympics. gruff speaks to my sole issue, US citizens are paying for those scholarships. Now, to that point, PRIVATE universities such as TCU, LMU can do whatever they like since they are private (I know there is fed funding for priv. univ.,). |
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Post by beachbum82 on May 15, 2025 11:55:43 GMT -5
When it comes to the "Olympic" sports the scholarships and roster spots should be given to American students. Shouldn't the goal be to train Americans for the Olympics, not have American schools train foreigners to beat Americans in the Olympics? Unpopular opinion, but as long as we have American athletes vying for these spots, preference should always be given to the American student. There is now more than ever limited athletic spots in the NCAA, they shouldn't continue to be even more limited by giving those limited spots to foreign athletes.
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Post by volleyguy on May 15, 2025 12:19:23 GMT -5
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Post by eastcoastcowboy on May 15, 2025 12:59:15 GMT -5
There are very few universities in America that both do not take in foreign student money and also invest in foreign student outlay of money. I would guess near zero.
Maybe it is not in the form of a scholarship, but there is an exchange happening, for the betterment of the University.
America without the best and the brightest from around the world would not be and will not be a better country for not investing in foreign talent. Period. Sports, science, goods, services, whatever.
I don't know anything about TCU's beach volleyball history. But I would guess that they would not be considered a top beach program without the type of international talent they get, and the other players, coaches, and fuller program are mostly likely benefiting from those scholarships. A few Americans who would not previously get scholarships from TCU would get them elsewhere if they are good enough. That is the exchange.
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Post by JB Southpaw on May 15, 2025 14:22:01 GMT -5
There are very few universities in America that both do not take in foreign student money and also invest in foreign student outlay of money. I would guess near zero. Maybe it is not in the form of a scholarship, but there is an exchange happening, for the betterment of the University. America without the best and the brightest from around the world would not be and will not be a better country for not investing in foreign talent. Period. Sports, science, goods, services, whatever. I don't know anything about TCU's beach volleyball history. But I would guess that they would not be considered a top beach program without the type of international talent they get, and the other players, coaches, and fuller program are mostly likely benefiting from those scholarships. A few Americans who would not previously get scholarships from TCU would get them elsewhere if they are good enough. That is the exchange. the programs are benefiting, that shouldn't be the goal. I thought beachbum82 had a nice post. In the big picture is this the biggest issue? no. But does stunt players and growth of the game right now in the beach and men's side because of such small $$/slots available. The people who said "let the kids transfer" are probably for foreign players, and you see where it got us. FYI, look at Men's basketball, NBA has more foreigners than ever, and now we aren't dominating like we used to. Pro leagues in Europe limit foreign players for a reason. |
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Post by eastcoastcowboy on May 15, 2025 15:44:36 GMT -5
There are very few universities in America that both do not take in foreign student money and also invest in foreign student outlay of money. I would guess near zero. Maybe it is not in the form of a scholarship, but there is an exchange happening, for the betterment of the University. America without the best and the brightest from around the world would not be and will not be a better country for not investing in foreign talent. Period. Sports, science, goods, services, whatever. I don't know anything about TCU's beach volleyball history. But I would guess that they would not be considered a top beach program without the type of international talent they get, and the other players, coaches, and fuller program are mostly likely benefiting from those scholarships. A few Americans who would not previously get scholarships from TCU would get them elsewhere if they are good enough. That is the exchange. the programs are benefiting, that shouldn't be the goal. I thought beachbum82 had a nice post. In the big picture is this the biggest issue? no. But does stunt players and growth of the game right now in the beach and men's side because of such small $$/slots available. The people who said "let the kids transfer" are probably for foreign players, and you see where it got us. FYI, look at Men's basketball, NBA has more foreigners than ever, and now we aren't dominating like we used to. Pro leagues in Europe limit foreign players for a reason. How do you start a post by saying that "the programs are benefiting, that shouldn't be the goal"? WHAT?! Growing the sport of beach volleyball in America is not the goal?I don't understand that at all and don't agree with it at all. Perhaps you and I are talking about 2 different things.
I am intimately familiar with what is going on in the NBA and I will tell you that Americans absolutely dominate at the global level, especially from a financial perspective. France will soon win medals over their American counterparts because of fluke talent that is concentrated in a few players (and a host of other reasons like the Americans don't really have a well established routine for Olympics cause they too busy making tens of millions of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$), just like when Rogers and Phil dominated even though America has a poor development program for men's beach, so this is kind of a bad example.
Pro leagues in Europe limit participation because their programs are so weak compared to the mature participation and number of foreigners who would inundate their teams; there is some local and national pride going on, not to mention those fans would not want to watch an all international team unless they win it all (and then you lose $$). There is no parallel to that for beach volleyball or volleyball in general in the USA. Volleyball is not a mature sport in American and on a different trajectory than pro basketball, so not a good comparison because they have different goals.
The USA does not have mature professional leagues. Everyone complains about how poorly the AVP runs its business and how little money there is for the American professional athlete, and it is true.To combat that, you need development programs and you need fuller participation in them. We see how well that has worked and will continue to work when you look at women's versus men's beach growth in the country.
You either commit to become a development institution within college or concede it to Europe long term. The downside will be that some Americans will not get scholarships BUT their teammates will get the benefits of playing against those players. Same with science; if you don't want the best and the brightest at MIT or whatnot pushing the envelop of technology or whatever, then you will become second rate. This is proven over and over and over through the course of history.
*Managing* how much and when to turn OFF the spigot of scholarships is definitely a thing and should be, just not right now because we should be concentrating on growth not offering $ to MUCH less talented players that would suck away that money. It is definitely a harsh way of viewing it but very realistic if the goal is to grow the sport and grow programs etc.
Maybe that is not your goal or what you may be referring to but that was my underlying assumption.
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Post by bvblove on May 15, 2025 15:51:41 GMT -5
I have already wrote my US representative about this issue. This shouldn't be allowed. Scholarships at American universities should be reserved for Americans. If foreign students wants to come here to learn and play, they should have to pay full fare. America first. Are we talking politics or beach volleyball here. The fact is that foreign player elevate the level of the sport in general and make American players better -just look at where the US women are in the world rankings, most importantly the depth of the program. The ‘America First’ might be good in other areas, here, the facts tell a different story… |
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Post by guest2 on May 15, 2025 17:15:29 GMT -5
I have already wrote my US representative about this issue. This shouldn't be allowed. Scholarships at American universities should be reserved for Americans. If foreign students wants to come here to learn and play, they should have to pay full fare. America first. Are we talking politics or beach volleyball here. The fact is that foreign player elevate the level of the sport in general and make American players better -just look at where the US women are in the world rankings, most importantly the depth of the program. The ‘America First’ might be good in other areas, here, the facts tell a different story… Except most in this thread don't understand the purpose of women's beach and why it is funded. Scholarships in women's beach volleyball do not exist because policy makers decided to elevate or improve beach volleyball or win the Olympics. Women's bvb is funded in the United States because of Title IX which mandates a degree of equivalency in scholarship opportunities for men and women in sports. Women's college inarguably helps the US achieve in world beach volleyball but so what? Other than the 12 beach volleyball fans, no one cares about that, it provides no societal or financial benefit, and even within that incredibly limited sphere, it isn't like we are dominating. (2024 being the first Olympic without a medal since Reno and McPeak were fighting over breast implants). I think if schools want to import foreign athletes to compete they should probably be allowed to, but that those scholarships should not count for the purposes of Title IX compliance. After all, when Congress mandated the inclusion of women in college sports, pretty sure they weren't attempting to provide opportunities for Belarussians. |
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Post by eastcoastcowboy on May 15, 2025 17:26:30 GMT -5
You never get better by playing against lesser talent. You get better and programs will get stronger by having better quality players. Just no 2 ways around it. Figuring out the funding of scholarships is another hurdle completely and solvable. Not easily solvable but much better than having mediocre players play against mediocre players. You want an example of that: AVP Men's volleyball. It sucks as a breeding ground for making players better. I get the argument @ecc, there are other avenues to play against the best. Megan Kraft was playing FIVB all throughout College, USA players could do the same as the Int'l players and take a year off to try for Olympics. How many college girls play FIVB tourney's each year that would constitute something significant to gain noticeable skill level? Maybe 2-3 kids while in college? Megan Kraft is not the example, she is the exception.
I'd go as far as saying Megan Kraft got much better because she played and practiced against top talent day in and day out and year in and year out at USC and that was the primary reason she got better. And that argument is in favor of having the best talent on rosters. Tina Graudina, Scoles, Norse Twins, Maple. No doubt the FIVB tourney's helped Kraft too but was that is extremely rare for an American college student.
Help me understand the other college beach athletes that are competing in FIVB over the course of the last 4 years while in school? Enough tournaments that we would both agree that that particular player got better because of that route.
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