|
Post by EP on Mar 4, 2004 7:11:10 GMT -5
What a cry baby article
|
|
|
Post by sIsam on Mar 4, 2004 9:26:24 GMT -5
I think this is the heart of the issue and what many people think in the US: that foreign players take up scholarships/ opportunities that should belong to americans...
IMO it's unfortunate and unfair towards foreign players who mostly see this as an opportunity to get a good quality education while being able to play their sport (an impossibility in most places.). With the current rules in place, it's next to impossible to bring in a "pro" foreign player and in this day and age of information technology, it's very easy to find out who did what where....
|
|
|
Post by tigfan on Mar 4, 2004 11:11:43 GMT -5
What a cry baby article It may be... but if you have foreign players on your roster and you win a national championship, everyone is going to question that player from here on out. We've set a precedent in men's volleyball that points fingers when someone isn't domestic... we automatically assume that every team with a foreign player is "cheating" and has just been yet to be caught... ...the only 100% safe thing to do for the team is to keep foreign kids off and save the argument down the road. ABSTINENCE is the only way.
|
|
|
Post by lalalaluuuke on Mar 4, 2004 11:35:07 GMT -5
It may be... but if you have foreign players on your roster and you win a national championship, everyone is going to question that player from here on out. We've set a precedent in men's volleyball that points fingers when someone isn't domestic... we automatically assume that every team with a foreign player is "cheating" and has just been yet to be caught... ...the only 100% safe thing to do for the team is to keep foreign kids off and save the argument down the road. ABSTINENCE is the only way. I hope you say this in total sarcasm. I think the biggest obstacle the sport has is going to be the sportscasters that try to discount the sport because of UH and Lewis's mistakes. Fortunately for men's volleyball it isn't a big enough sport to garner that kind of discussion. Probably the only time you hear it mentioned on national tv is during the Final Four. And maybe it will be announced on SportsCenter when they are officially stripped. While it is huge in the eyes of the true volleyball fans, it is miniscule to the rest of the sports world. On another note, what are opinions on giving recognition to the runner-up as title holder? I think it makes sense. In any other competition the 1st runner-up gets the title if the champ is DQ'd or can't fill the shoes. What does everyone think about that?
|
|
|
Post by Smooth "954" Mike on Mar 4, 2004 11:54:03 GMT -5
Why did Costas from Hawaii conclude his eligibility playing all 4 years at Hawaii helping his team to a National Title before anything came out about his professional status? Why has Lewis been a mess for the past 2 years?
Answer to that question: Simple because they win, and they won National Championships. The word through the grape vine has is that LBC got their hands on an actual contract signed by Costas and turned it into the NCAA. As for Lewis……no one knows for sure.
It is up to the school to make sure their “foreign†players are at amateur status. It’s not up to the other schools to try and prove the other program has professional player(s) on their roster.
How to deal with this problem:
If these other teams would focus half as much attention on developing their own team rather than worrying about another schools program they would be celebrating NCAA Titles. No one likes a sore loser, but what’s worse is a cheater. What kind of an example is that sending to the younger generation of volleyball players?
My point is it’s easy to bring professional players into the league because it is too hard to do background checks on foreign athletes who you know nothing about. Where do you start to look? However once a player establishes himself as a dominate player and people start to talk someone ends up knowing someone how has played with them or against them. The only real challenge the school/coach has to do is take a chance and just say they had no prior knowledge that this athlete was a professional. For the NCAA to prove otherwise that the school officials or coaches had any prior knowledge of any professional status would be next to impossible based on hear say. The actual investigations aren’t a basis of NCAA hunches they are brought to their attention from other coaches. Once the NCAA is made aware of the possible allegations then information technology will be used during their investigations to search out these players background. “Word of Mouth.†is what keeps it hard for professional athlete’s to stay in, and starts the beginning of the end of their playing career in the NCAA.
To solve this problem:
*The NCAA has to hand out big time punishments when schools break rules. People aren’t doing their job, and the coaches have way TOO much control on what goes on behind the scenes. Once the NCAA draws the line and makes an example of a program, problems have a way of working themselves out.
|
|
|
Post by bangdown on Mar 4, 2004 12:02:50 GMT -5
***On another note, what are opinions on giving recognition to the runner-up as title holder? I think it makes sense. In any other competition the 1st runner-up gets the title if the champ is DQ'd or can't fill the shoes.***
That is completely the wrong thing to do....how do you explain that to the team that the DQ'd team beat in the semis or another squad that was on the bubble and didn't make it. It is unfortunate that there is no way to crown a champion for the past two years.
|
|
|
Post by Saruman on Mar 4, 2004 12:36:36 GMT -5
On another note, what are opinions on giving recognition to the runner-up as title holder? I think it makes sense. In any other competition the 1st runner-up gets the title if the champ is DQ'd or can't fill the shoes. What does everyone think about that? Red Yukon
Reply!
No you cannot justify giving the runner up the title....in a team sport if the winner cheated with ineligible players.
Remember it is the season and the tourney that determine the eventual winner, hence the people that have gotten beat along the way would have legitimate complaints as to not being considered for a championship consideration.
Furthermore, the 9th seed (left out of the MPSF....or for matter of fact ever team on that side of the bracket ) should be pissed off as they were knocked out of a a National Championship by a team that had an unfair advantage. Knowingly or unwittingly I would be furious as an athlete, school and coach.
These reprocussions run deeper than people are willing to look. It is recruiting, exposure and money lost for a program that suffers from the mistakes of Lewis and Hawaii who get in their way of getting on TV/Final 4 .
Do you all understand this?
Hey folks stop for a second and look at the big picture. If this were basketball or football both Hawaii and Lewis might be looking at stripping of scholarships....no extendend post season play....or suspensions.
Am I over-reacting....no
If we are all throwing out opinions based of our own undying loyalties.....stop it!
I hate/love/admire/respect/loathe UCLA and Big Al. They have had their own issues that go with 1000 National Championships (their team dining and ditching on a meal in Indiana) and yes the bald-headed Ozzie foreigner...who probably was legit in amateur status.
Al Scates is willing to go on the record and say what many coaches have been saying in hushed tones for the past couple years.
I can't stand his demeanor.....but that's my own weakness.
but I agree with him.
Coaches need to get off their a## and travel to Florida,NY,Virginia,Illinois,Wisconsin.....and lookey here maybe their are more of these Dan Rhodes, Jeff Ptaks, Robert Tarrs, sean Rooney, etc.
Once in a blue moon an incredible legit 18 year-old talent like Ivan Contreras will land on your doorstep and you are golden.....but the trend that some of these programs had taken in the last couple years ....it was a matter of time before they get burnt!
Good !
Let's get back to finding good 17/18 year old American Athletes and turn them in to good volleyball players.....hey maybe we'll get and Gold medal too?
But remember that means these College coaches will have to coach and train again?
Yes that was hard sarcasm!
|
|
|
Post by lalalaluuuke on Mar 4, 2004 13:09:30 GMT -5
If we are all throwing out opinions based of our own undying loyalties.....stop it!
|
|
|
Post by Saruman on Mar 4, 2004 13:13:07 GMT -5
I meant stop it for this issue of foreign /professional/ never my program.
After that ye it is fair game.
Sorry this got misinterpreted.....
|
|
|
Post by future on Mar 4, 2004 15:27:29 GMT -5
Saruman,
Pretty much hit the nail on the head!
You were very diplomatic and correct.....but I will call it like I see it as I sense the tide is about to turn
I'm not afaid to admit it...I don't want 22-28 year olds foreign players or American players in DI who have been playing and training for years overseas.
Costas, Milakovich, the polish / Eastern European players on teams like Temple, JR, Gustavo, the whole team at the now defunct Concordia......OUT!
If you are 18-20 from Russia have jr. national team experience and coming to get a great education....and clean with no pro experience....and can prove it....Welcome!
But If I am running a DI or DII program I would think twice about rolling the dice again.
Just think how good Sean Rooney, Brian Beckwith, evan Patak, Dan Odell, Dan Rhodes, etc will be when they are 23-28.
hhhhmmm.
|
|
|
Post by sIsam on Mar 4, 2004 16:20:54 GMT -5
My point is it’s easy to bring professional players into the league because it is too hard to do background checks on foreign athletes who you know nothing about. Where do you start to look? This actually should not be that hard. Check with the VB Fed of the player in question. Player contracts are submitted to the federation one way or another... IMO if a coach is serious about finding this information, it should not be that hard....
|
|
|
Post by benwhipdrofn on Mar 4, 2004 19:31:18 GMT -5
You couldn't award the championship to the runner up because of the chain effect that would happen. AND, so far a decision to take away Lewis championship has not been decided,,,,so making a judgement on 2 years in a row to not have a championship is an assumption.
Just out of curiousity, what does Turkey have as far as pro leagues are concerned?
Also, I'm sorry, but I stand by what I said before, no one gets a chance to pick where he wants to be born, we need to imbrace our freedoms and priviledges that we have here and share when we can. Choose the BEST person (providing you do a complete background check first haha). I think the foreign players have added to the sport and improved it. It makes America players try harder, which is a good thing. No matter what, we all will have different opinions about this...I think that this is one discussion that will lead to no where except we all agree that the NCAA needs to clean up the rules concerning pro status and foreign athletes. There is too much "gray" area.
|
|
|
Post by midwestfan on Mar 4, 2004 19:48:09 GMT -5
Agree! NCAA rules need to be more clearly defined, easily read and understood by someone who doesn't have a law degree! ;D I also think that the rules should apply universally to both D1 and D2 schools playing D1 volleyball. In other words, Lewis, Findlay, I'm not even sure who else is in that catagory, should have the exact same rules as the other schools that they compete against. D3 schools have their own tournaments, so they could continue to separate themselves from the other schools.
Foreign Players:
In order to maintain any assemblance of competitiveness, the midwest and the east have been given no other choice than to recruit from other countries. Our best players go west (to the golden area of volleyball) and very few (and generally not your best) come back here to play. But we should make sure that they are legal and for crying out loud a reasonable age (I'm sorry but a 28 yr. old college setter is just not acceptable, imho).
|
|
|
Post by midwestfan on Mar 4, 2004 19:54:08 GMT -5
Oh, and by the way, Miss benwhip'd, why do ask about Turkey? Hummmmmm!
|
|
|
Post by benwhipdrofn on Mar 4, 2004 20:01:09 GMT -5
I've noticed a few players recently on some teams from Turkey. just wondering if this is a "the new Brazil" haha
yeah, maybe JR is too old to play, but I still think he rocks and is doing a great job with some of the younger players. I think he would be a fantastic coach.
|
|