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Post by traveler5 on Nov 1, 2006 11:43:21 GMT -5
Completely agree with VBCOACH's 9 point plan. The two biggest factors in the mix, enough money and the right skills set. If you pay them (enough), they (or more of them) will come. The players motivated to play on the national team will learn the skills that they know are required by the national team coaches.
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Post by VolleyTX on Nov 1, 2006 12:14:34 GMT -5
You are making the point that we don't need to change the rules.... my comment is that we shouldn't have change the rules in the first place. Why are our rules SO different from the entire rest of the world? What is unique about girls playing in the US? Why not keep a world standard?
Are you telling me that a system that allows for a 12 year old girl, who is an outside hitter, who isn't a natural passer or defender, to be subbed out when she gets to the back row doesn't thwart her development as an all around player? When the entire rest of the world expects an outside hitter to be an all around player. The rest of the world does not have a system that allows for this player to be subbed out.
I do agree that more practice time helps. Maybe some of the international folks can tell us if our girls are practicing less than the US girls.
So why can't she pass or play defense? Are you saying that the system I described above had no influence on your defense and passing? You don't think if she was forced to play back row from a very early age she wouldn't be a better passer/defender today?
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Post by Gorf on Nov 1, 2006 12:41:01 GMT -5
You are making the point that we don't need to change the rules.... my comment is that we shouldn't have change the rules in the first place. Why are our rules SO different from the entire rest of the world? What is unique about girls playing in the US? Why not keep a world standard? The USAV rules for AA / Open competition have used the same substitution rules as the international rules for as long as I've been paying attenton to them since the mid-1980s. Why are collegiate rules different? Probably to level the playing field somewhat between the "haves" and the "have nots" since not many teams in the country can get the same level of recruits on a steady basis as say Stanford (and some of the other commonly highly ranked teams.) Frankly, how many truly all around players are on even the "elite" teams these days? It would be interesting to see the average number of subs each team uses per game. How many 12 year olds are "natural passers"? It seems to me even in some of the youngest age groups there are a plethora of coaches / programs that are more about winning than about player development. Unless there is a trend for development more volleyball athletes into all around players at younger ages it isn't likely to happen very often by the time they make it to collegiate teams and waiting until getting to the national team to begin thinking about becoming an all around player would seem to be somewhat futile.
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Post by foreignball on Nov 1, 2006 12:45:34 GMT -5
We need to get our sub rules more in line with FIVB rules. I totally agree with the above, however I do not see it happening anytime soon. .... If we look at the problem from a little bit different angle, say from a business prospective we will see that neither the “company” management nor the consumer has any interest of changing the product. Why I use the word “business”? The game of vball is profession for many people who get paid for being involved in it (all coaches at different levels, NCAA players who receive the equivalent of college education costs, refs, medical/technical personnel, etc). Some other people buy the product – all people who pay admission fee, all parents who pay for their daughters to play in Jr clubs. As long as there are people who produce product and some others who buy it – it is a business, even though there is no vball pro-league in the US. Who are the management? All full time employed NCAA coaches and administrative personnel who are the decision makers (at least for the team that they are responsible for). I’ve already said who the consumer is. We can make a better and more detailed description but I do not think it is necessary for the purpose. As in other businesses some parties are more active while some others are more passive. In our case the active ones are the coaches and the parents so I’ll try to take a look from their point of view. Coaches keep their jobs more or less depending on their team records so they have to be able to field teams that win. Having in mind all restrictions that they have to comply with (they have a limited # of ‘ships, limited practice time, limited # of competition days, limited ^%$^%*….) it turns out they practically do not have time to develop player’s skills. On the other hand all parents who take the burden of permanently increasing club fees, travel expenses, etc. have great interest of paying less. So the current rules suit perfectly the 2 major parties involved in the business of vball: It is much more difficult and takes much more time to develop all around players. More time means higher # of practices which = to higher club fees. Fewer # of subs means less girls playing which = less income for the clubs. We can also add the fact that at the moment players who are good in 1 or 2 aspects of the game still have pretty good chance to get a full ride while with international rules in service it will be greatly reduced. From the coaches stand point less subs means they have to spend a lot of time to develop basic skills starting very often from a scratch. In other words they wouldn’t be able to utilize some players for 1 may be 2 seasons so basically they would end up giving a 4 year (in some places 4.5 and even 5) full rides versus 2-3 years of service in return. To sum all this up: As long as the people involved in the business are happy with the product we can’t expect any changes soon…..
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2006 12:49:24 GMT -5
Guess what? Take 20 12-year-old VB players and spend 2 hours working on passing and you'll have substantially fewer players at your next practice.
This is a time issue. Coaches (and players) have to make choices. Changing the rules won't solve the time issue. It'll just mean there are fewer kids playing the game.
Why can't Ogonna pass or play defense? Why can't I play the cello? One, I don't have the time and two, I've never demonstrated any aptitude for it.
Do we honestly believe that _anyone_ can be taught to pass well?
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Post by roofed! on Nov 1, 2006 12:56:26 GMT -5
I am wondering whether the team brings the young players (such as Lee, Olsovsky and Collymore) who were cut from the 12-players roster to Japan as well, so that they can learn from the best of international players as well as performing sparring/video duties for the team?
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Post by VolleyTX on Nov 1, 2006 13:04:54 GMT -5
I do think just about anyone can learn to pass adequately. Almost ALL the Cuban players don't look like natural passers to me, but they have had to do it long enough (and in game situations) that they can do it adequately.
Any young outside hitter, playing under FIVB rules, KNOWS that she must pass decently or she will not be able to see ANY playing time. Wouldn't her motivation and dedication to passing and defense change?
Let's say an Italian juniors/club coach comes across a Oganna type player at 15 years of age. What would he work on with that player? He would spend 75% of his time working with this girl on passing and defense because he knows that is the only way he can get her on the court to take advantage of her offense. Because of our substitution RULES here in the US, coaches don't have the motivation to develop that part of the child's game.
You say the coach has to make choices. If the RULES were different he/she might finally be motivated to make the right choices with player development.
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Post by 3talltrees on Nov 1, 2006 13:08:08 GMT -5
Okay, I've got a 12 year old who is a good passer. However, after watching her with her teammates, I realized that she didn't get her passing skills from playing club. Rather, she got them at home peppering with her older siblings. They are elite vb players who can be relentless at slamming the ball at her, then telling her to "run along" after 15-20 minutes...doubtless, her punishment for one too many shanks. There's nothing like sibling rivalry to keep the fire burning!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2006 13:11:27 GMT -5
Passing "adequately" is a far cry from passing "well".
The USA players pass adequately. Hell, Ogonna passes adequately.
Here's another possibility: That Italian coach has the hypothetical Ogonna and can't get her to pass well enough to play (under FIVB rules). So this Ogonna either is out of the game or riding the bench -- kind of like the situation now. Or she quits the sport entirely.
Change the rules and the coaches just have more things to cover in the same amount of time.
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Post by Gorf on Nov 1, 2006 13:28:29 GMT -5
I do think just about anyone can learn to pass adequately. Almost ALL the Cuban players don't look like natural passers to me, but they have had to do it long enough (and in game situations) that they can do it adequately. Any young outside hitter, playing under FIVB rules, KNOWS that she must pass decently or she will not be able to see ANY playing time. Wouldn't her motivation and dedication to passing and defense change? Let's say an Italian juniors/club coach comes across a Oganna type player at 15 years of age. What would he work on with that player? He would spend 75% of his time working with this girl on passing and defense because he knows that is the only way he can get her on the court to take advantage of her offense. Because of our substitution RULES here in the US, coaches don't have the motivation to develop that part of the child's game. You say the coach has to make choices. If the RULES were different he/she might finally be motivated to make the right choices with player development. Does changing the rules for all NCAA (DI, DII, DII) teams really going to do anything reagarding developing more all around volleyball players? Do we try to get FIVB rules introduced to all high schools around the country as well? Do we try to get the USAV rules for club teams changed to match the FIVB rules for all ages and levels of play? Teaching the skills of volleyball are independent of the rules sets used at each of those levels and teaching those skills is easier when the players are younger than when they're older. As for Ogonna in specific - she's a world class athlete - if she and her collegiate coaches had wanted her to be a solid back row player on serve receive she would have achieved that. Her defense was more than adequate as a senior - she averaged something ~2.20 digs / game over the course of the season yet she was still hidden much of the time on serve receive.
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Post by VBCOACH on Nov 1, 2006 13:31:58 GMT -5
Completely agree with VBCOACH's 9 point plan. What, you didn't like points 10, 11 & 12? ![:-/](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/undecided.png)
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Post by OverAndUnder on Nov 1, 2006 13:39:50 GMT -5
The real problem is systemic and can't be reduced to one or two single issues. But here goes anyway:
The real problem is america's ideological and poorly formulated love of fairness, which promotes the ridiculous fantasy that we can somehow all get academic degrees and be successful entrepreneurs.
In this country Lebron James generates a maximum media saturation whirlwind of controversy by wanting to go pro before graduating high school. How dare he not get a high school diploma! It is essential to society that he read and analyze "Canterbury Tales" before he goes on to earn a quarter BILLION dollars in NBA contracts and endorsement deals in the first seven years of his career. The USA does not have a teen-to-adult life skills tracking system like almost every other nation. The majority of students attend cookie cutter public schools at equivalent locations, under equivalent curricula, with equivalent standards. Then they are all sent to university or junior college to get a degree in something or other so that they can Be Someone. We have this bizarre and misplaced sense of equality that states every individual is as smart or "good" as everyone else, and that everyone should have the same opportunity to attend university and major in economics or pre-med. Sorry but life isn't fair and we're not all the same and the overwhelming majority of people have barely average skills -- that's what "average" means. A small number of people are good at one thing. A smaller number are good at several things. A smaller number are really really good at one thing. And an extremely small handful are really really good at several things.
Look at Gymnastics and Figure Skating. USA athletes are fixtures on the Olympic medal stand. Why? Because the girls are eating, sleeping, and breathing the techniques from age 5 while being homeschooled. Their Olympic/pro careers are basically over at 18, so they can still chase fulfill the American Dream of getting a college degree and Being Someone (because we all implicitly understand that auto mechanics aren't Someones).
Most other countries have a history in which skilled trades developed through tribal, caste, or guild systems, and they are more open to the idea that group separations are an inevitable result of actual variation among the population. But Americans are so sensitive about invalidating someone's individual free expression that we have a hard time saying, "Look, Brittanee Ballbanger is sixteen years old and while maybe she's smart enough to get through med school and maybe she could develop her talents as a singer, the thing she is already 'really really good' at volleyball, and it's time for her to pick a future and start down that path so she can get the most development possible. If she wants to be an Olympic/pro volleyball player she doesn't need an undergrad degree to do it, so we can reduce her remaining two high school years to the basics needed to function in society and start her on a daily workout schedule and occasional training with/against the extended NT depth chart. And if she has the work ethic to go back for a college degree at the age of 30 when her volleyball career declines, more power to her."
The success of our JNT and YNT programs proves that we have the athletes to win, but we spend the next five years hobbling them.
Choose ye, America:
A) The 4pm network TV Public Service Announcement mantra that "knowledge is power" and all kids "don't be a fool, stay in school".
-OR-
B) "My National Team Volleyball Player Beat Up Your Honor Student"
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Post by VBCOACH on Nov 1, 2006 13:42:07 GMT -5
Guess what? Take 20 12-year-old VB players and spend 2 hours working on passing and you'll have substantially fewer players at your next practice. This is a time issue. Coaches (and players) have to make choices. Changing the rules won't solve the time issue. It'll just mean there are fewer kids playing the game. Why can't Ogonna pass or play defense? Why can't I play the cello? One, I don't have the time and two, I've never demonstrated any aptitude for it. Do we honestly believe that _anyone_ can be taught to pass well? (R)uffda, There was a time, long, long ago, (but not far away,) before Sports Performance came along, when club volleyball teams only practiced once or twice a week. Club volleyball was MUCH less intense (time-wise) than it is now. A lot of the players still played high school basketball and softball. And although a lot less time was available for practice, these clubs STILL were able to teach the all-around game (passing, defense, playing multiple positions, etc.) And girls didn't quit because of this. You lose your argument through historical perspective.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2006 13:52:23 GMT -5
So you are saying that these kids _could_ be taught to pass. But the coaching is poor? Or the rules make the coaches lazy?
I think you lose your argument on this point alone.
You are also implying that the exceptional players of that time, long, long ago were representative of the players as a whole. I don't buy it.
The same exceptional players exist today, by the way. And those are the players USA Volleyball needs. But do they need USAV? Seems like they don't.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2006 13:55:38 GMT -5
This is so silly. What advantage did John Dunning have in refusing to teach Ogonna to pass? She was playing the backrow anyhow (for her offense), wouldn't it have been handy to have her up to speed on passing?
So either Dunning is a terrible coach or he didn't have anyone else on his staff who could act as Ogonna's Yoda. OR -- wait for it -- Ogonna can't pass.
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