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Post by VolleyTX on Nov 1, 2006 17:01:50 GMT -5
No one ever suggest that coaches refuse to teach players how to pass. Many of your comments suggest you think that Ogonna was never destined to be a good passer. Who knows.
There is still a problem with a system that always pushes these big athletic girls out of the serving rotation. I don't care how many reps you do in practice... I don't care how much pepper you play... I don't care how many passing drills you run..... none of that makes up for being a primary passer during a match.
I can only imagine the brainwashing it does to these big girls who are always removed when they hit the back row. If they never had to perform this function all through their juniors and clubs... how the heck are they going to find the confidence to learn it in college and beyond.
The current substitution rules turns almost everyone into a specialist. Internation rules do not favor a team full of specialist. That is the reality of the situation.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2006 17:11:01 GMT -5
Well, that's the thing: How many kids can be the primary passer in a match? Two!
The current sub rules do not turn everyone into a specialist. For one thing, everyone is _not_ a specialist. For another, it's the time limits, not the rules.
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Post by BearClause on Nov 1, 2006 17:14:43 GMT -5
No one ever suggest that coaches refuse to teach players how to pass. Many of your comments suggest you think that Ogonna was never destined to be a good passer. Who knows. There is still a problem with a system that always pushes these big athletic girls out of the serving rotation. I don't care how many reps you do in practice... I don't care how much pepper you play... I don't care how many passing drills you run..... none of that makes up for being a primary passer during a match. I can only imagine the brainwashing it does to these big girls who are always removed when they hit the back row. If they never had to perform this function all through their juniors and clubs... how the heck are they going to find the confidence to learn it in college and beyond. The current substitution rules turns almost everyone into a specialist. Internation rules do not favor a team full of specialist. That is the reality of the situation. Someone mentioned that Pavan doesn't usually get a back-row sub because Cook feels that part of his responsibility in taking her was to allow her the opportunity to face back-row responsibilities that she'll need to work on for international competition. So I guess he's leaving her in even though he probably has someone who's a better passer/digger on the bench. Of course I hear she's a fine back-row attacker.
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Post by Mix Breed-TEXAS,HI,LBSU on Nov 1, 2006 17:15:39 GMT -5
well maybe they should have a new international rule where only the u.s can have 3 liberos on the court.....lol
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Post by BearClause on Nov 1, 2006 17:21:22 GMT -5
well maybe they should have a new international rule where only the u.s can have 3 liberos on the court.....lol The libero rule actually allows for the libero to substitute for any player in the back row. It doesn't have to be for two middles, and it doesn't have to be for two players who play opposite each other in the rotation. I've seen a few uses of the libero in college where she went in for a middle and most of a leftside's back-row rotations. The secret of course is to have another middle who plays competent back-row defense (Jennifer Joines for example).
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Post by VolleyTX on Nov 1, 2006 17:30:03 GMT -5
Time limits? I can understand how playing against inferior competition all the time can stunt a players development, but what time limits are we talking about? It seems to me that these girls still live, eat and breathe volleyball.
In terms of specialist.... I could probably use a lot of teams, but let's take the example of the Gophers a couple years ago when they made it to the ncaa final.
- They had two left sides that ONLY played front row - They had two middles that ONLY played front row
There were only two players that played all six rotations. Sounds to me like a very specialized team.
I think Florida only has two players playing all six rotations. Who knows how many other teams do the same thing.
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Post by Gorf on Nov 1, 2006 17:32:49 GMT -5
International rules do not favor a team full of specialists, however, with the addition of the libero they currently favor more specialists (both the libero and the players replaced by the libero) than they favored prior to the addition of the libero.
In that respect the international rules also appear to be moving in the direction of more specialization than toward less specialization.
US basketball and international basketball have signifcant rules differences as well, yet the US national teams despite throwing players together for only a few week prior to the major events are still very competitive even if they don't always win the competitions.
US men's collegiate and professional basketball have transitioned to becoming more of a sport of spectacular play (ie, dunks) than well rounded players.
The difference to me is that there have been no successful profesional volleyball leagues in the US. Largely becuase sponsors can't be found to fund such leagues for the long term and the leagues fold after a couple of years at best.
IMO the rules differences mean very little and VBCOACH's comment in his list of finding sponsors for the national team would apply equally as well to finding sponsors for a professional volleyball league in the US which would give players more time all year round to play and develop their skill levels as is done by other countries around the world.
Changing the collegiate, high school, club rules to fit the FIVB rules in terms of substitution may benefit a few players that could eventually / potentially make it to the the US national team while hurting many thousands of other players by resulting in their getting less time to play in matches.
There are a plenty of all around players that have graduated over the past several years, some of which spent time on the various YNT, A2 and other teams related to the US national team yet they're not playing on the US national team now that they've graduated.
Some are playing on the AVP tour (Ross, Burdine, May, Walsh, amongst others) instead of playing for the US national team.
I'm having trouble believing that their reasons for not joining (or staying with) the US national team have anything at all to do with the differences in the collegiate and FIVB substitution rules.
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Post by VBCOACH on Nov 1, 2006 17:59:56 GMT -5
a professional volleyball league in the US which would give players more time all year round to play and develop their skill levels as is done by other countries around the world. Playing in a professional league DOES NOT DEVELOP SKILL LEVELS. There is little or no coaching or drills for the skills (serving, setting, defense, blocking & hitting.) Most practices are just scrimmages. Or so I'm told by the many girls that I know who play in these Professional leagues. Of course, I agree, that simply playing in the leagues against good competition is highly valuable in itself, and some skills, especially hitting and blocking, probably improve thereby. But not by design of the Professional coaches. They just get good players, roll out the ball and say, "win."
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Post by roofed! on Nov 1, 2006 18:17:07 GMT -5
One thing that I have noticed is that the A2 national team training with college players seems to be lackluster over the past few years. Nowadays, the A2 team got together for a week, and then they play together for another week at the USAV Open. That's it. If I am correct, I used to read that Ross, Olsovsky etc used to spend 3-4 weeks (or longer) at OTC, and then several players were also drafted into Pan Am Cup, Montreaux teams etc. They should also get a coach with international experiences to train this ladies, rather than getting the college coaches, who I think wouldn't be too well-tuned to international plays.
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Post by VBCOACH on Nov 1, 2006 18:24:43 GMT -5
Changing the collegiate, high school, club rules to fit the FIVB rules in terms of substitution may benefit a few players that could eventually / potentially make it to the the US national team while hurting many thousands of other players by resulting in their getting less time to play in matches. There are a plenty of all around players that have graduated over the past several years, some of which spent time on the various YNT, A2 and other teams related to the US national team yet they're not playing on the US national team now that they've graduated. Another history lesson. Changing the sub rules would not hurt players by giving them less playing time. It simply would change the MIX of players getting playing time. That is, there would be fewer defensive specialists on the court and more front line players on the court. And, for that matter, there would be fewer defensive specialists on the TEAM, and more front line players on the roster...just like it used to be. See, we have history as our guide. AND, these extra Middles, Leftsides and Opposites COULD go into the backrow for passing and defense, AS THEY USED TO, when needed. Just one example for now. Pacific (when they were a regular final 4 team,) recruited a 6' 2" middle, who was behind 2 All-American middles for two years. While waiting for a chance to play in the front row, she was a DS for two years. Excellent passer and defensive player. And read my reply to (R)uffda. Learning how to play the entire game would benefit ALL players, but yes, would eliminate the need for as many defensive specialists as are being used now. I don't see that as a bad thing. Volleyball is not an equal opportunity sport, it is by its nature a tall persons sport. And finally, there are clearly not many all around players today. You mentioned the exceptions. Read VolleyTX's post. And if you don't accept this fact, I will get out my college rosters from the 80's and 90's and name 20 all around players for every one that you can name from a current college roster.
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Post by VBCOACH on Nov 1, 2006 18:40:16 GMT -5
Here's the deal. Team USA has decided to go with big hitters over more well-rounded players. That was their choice and had nothing to do with the ruleset being used. You can argue about whether this was the right choice, but I do not think that it is true the well-rounded players no longer exist. And you haven't convinced me you aren't simply pining for the fjords of old. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ) Actually, the pool of big hitters who are all-around players is quite small, (especially since many of them don't want to be on the National Team, i.e. Tom.) So they take whatever is left. It's not a choice and it has nothing to do with the ruleset. You cannot win with a short team, no matter how good the players are (see Japan.) And you're right, I do pine for the good old days. But only because volleyball was so much a better game then. ![:-[](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/embarrassed.png)
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Post by VBCOACH on Nov 1, 2006 18:52:25 GMT -5
This is so silly. What advantage did John Dunning have in refusing to teach Ogonna to pass? Neither John Dunning nor anyone else could have improved Ogonnas passing enough after she entered college. Passing can only be taught at a younger age, as I've expounded upon many times before. (I guess you don't like to read my posts. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ) It's like learning a foreign language, remember? Best done when young.
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Post by Phaedrus on Nov 2, 2006 0:05:04 GMT -5
Man, try to stay focused at work for one day and look at all the fireworks I miss.
1) You don't learnhow to pass by just passing in games. You learn how to pass by passing, a lot in practice. One of the previous posters got it right, we have to pick and choose the skills we work on and passing clearly has not been a priority. Most junior coaches isolate too much on one skill. Why not have the passers pass while doing hitting drills instead of having the coaches toss?
2) The Libero serving rule is the brainchild of the NCAA coaches, its the big dogs trying to take advantage of having the Libero position since the players they use as Liberos are their best all around athlete and their best and most versatile servers, so they didn't want to lose that option when theyslap that weird uniform on them.
3) Anyone remember seeing the Lions Cup video that USAV handed out? Japanese grade school championships. Lowered net, not sure about lighter ball but I doubt it, Libero, full uniform and bun huggers. This was in the 1990's. The rec players in Japan ae incredible passers, ball control is the only thing you can get good at when you are that young, that weak, and that short. These kids learned how to play because they got dragged to the courts when their mom's played so the game was ingrained in them. Oh, the coliseum was packed with crazy rabid fans screaming and cheering, these are 12 year olds playing, so yes, they play at a different level from a young age. But where is Japan on the international stage? No where, why? because of the physical ability. My good friend, who assisted Arie Selinger in the Japanes pro league came to the USA and marvelled at how physical and how athletic our 15 year olds were. He also changed their passing in two hours. He said, given his druthers, he would rather have good athletes and he can teach them how to pass. The problem is we don't try to teach passing until the studs who go on to the national team are in college, their motor skills have already been hard wired, it is reall y hard to break bad habits when you are 22 than when you are 12. This is why we are always behind.
4) Burnout. Brian Gimillaro made a great point at the convention. He said his son never ever got burned out from video games. He can play for hours and never quit, why? because it is fun. We have regimentized volleyball to the point where it isn;t fun. I used to play for hours, doubles, triples, fours. we would keep score but never stop at any score unless we got hungry or if there were someone waiting. We just played to work on our skills. I paid to go through drills, just to get better, I loved to do drills because it made me better. Now playing is formalized with refs, scores, parents etc. practice is regimentized and is prettyy boring for most coaches because they are psycho about winning every tournament, match, game, point. The point is, we are not doing the national team any favors by trying to win every little tournament at the expense of develping our players for the total game with all the right skills.
5) Getting big buick sponsors. If it is that easy to get fianncial support, why doesn;t everyone do it? It isn't that easy, especially when there are no marketing incentives from a team that hasn't made any noises in the Olympics in a few quadrennials. Win and the sponsorships will come. Lose and resort to playig the little sisters of the poor on your local tour.
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Post by bud on Nov 2, 2006 0:12:49 GMT -5
I have an idea - is it new? Move indoor volleyball to the Winter Olympics. Give the USA's best players a chance at the indoor game. NBC has enough pull with the IOC.$$$$$$$ It would also give me a reason to watch the winter games.
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Post by Murina on Nov 2, 2006 0:45:38 GMT -5
How the USA can win a Gold Medal: 1. Move to Anaheim CA.........YES. There will be players who complain no matter where the training site is. COS was fine, Anaheim will be fine. Not so much arguing against this but just pointing out: there is tremendous money already in volleyball in the USA. It's in the colleges. For the best players it's going to take a lot more than that. The best players can make $100,000 in 3 months in europe or japan. You're going to be hard pressed to get a coach with a better resume for developing players and winning at a high level than Lang. I'm all for coaches getting paid though ;D Reality is that it is more cost effective to let them play overseas and develop over there. Later on you state that club teams don't train skills. That is as true for some clubs as it is in the USA, but the good clubs certainly do train skills. The USAV can have some influence on who their players play for when overseas. Just a start...
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