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Post by sonofbarcelonabob on Jul 12, 2004 15:00:55 GMT -5
A thought from a separate thread on the women's board got me to thinking, courtesy of IdahoDork:
The thought - who conceivably in the last 10 years could have challenged and possibly beat out Ball as the starting setter for the USA Men?
In addition to my earlier mention of Stein Metzger (UCLA '96), I had two other possibilities and one longshot:
Possibles - Canyon Ceman (Stanford '94), and Brandon Taliaferro (UCLA '00).
I believe Ceman did go to train with the USA program briefly after college - didn't work out at the time, bad fit. USA was sold on Ball.
Taliaferro could not overcome recurring nagging injuries.
Longshot - Jeff Nygaard (UCLA '95). In the mid-90's this was actually a popular "what if" theory. He had the skill, but not the desire to play setter. Given that he didn't have the offensive pop needed at the international level, setter would have been an ideal fit for him - he had ball-control, volleyball smarts, and superb blocking ability. But, as mentioned, he wasn't keen on playing setter. His all-around game is ideal for the beach, and his size and blocking ability make him a much sought-after commodity.
In the next quadrennial, it looks like Suxho (if he stays) and Hildebrand from LBSU. Guess it will come down to what the coaching staff wants - athleticism of Suxho or the ability of Hildebrand. I personally would go with Hildebrand. Suxho sets like a truck.
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Post by IdahoBoy on Jul 12, 2004 15:06:29 GMT -5
Didn't.
However, I'm glad I am inspiring you to think.
That's what I'm here for.
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Post by random on Jul 12, 2004 15:11:01 GMT -5
For the record, I am not "SonofBarcelona."
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Post by doctordubya on Jul 13, 2004 4:39:50 GMT -5
I know this wasn't the kind of answer you were thinking of, but I'll throw it out there anyway - Jeff Stork (in 95-96)
On the younger guys, my bet would have been Taliaferro. I saw some tape of matches (I think from the Americas Cup, maybe the Pan Am Cup) a couple of years back, during the brief period when he was on the team and fit. He really looked like an international setter - very stable and consistent hand positioning, every time, good pass or bad, and very hard to read. Tough server too, and good general court presence.
I remember one play in particular v a young Canada team, where he set Tom Hoff on the 31. He was pulled a little off the net, but just shot the perfect set nice and high and right into Hoff's hand (Hoff crushed it inside the 10ft line). I had watched the USA in the same tournament the year before and was used to seeing Ball fire 31s somewhere around Hoff's chin (and Hoff struggle to wipe it around the block).
My question is - why has Taliaferro suffered so much with injury? On the national team he should have been getting the best physical prep and conditioning available. Looking at other national sides, the setter is generally the least likely to get injured (you only have to look at Paolo Tofoli still setting for Italy at something not far off 40 years of age). Is the US team's conditioning not up to speed...?
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Post by palo on Jul 13, 2004 12:45:57 GMT -5
Coming out of highschool the same year as Brandon were a couple of other setters that also showed a lot of promise. Chris Gisslen who spent some time on the US roster. And also Kieth Barnett, younger brother of Kevin. There was some debate about who was a better setter coming out of nationals that year between Kieth and Brandon. With Brandon's team winning it all, he was voted MVP. And he had a more visible career at UCLA, while Kieth took a few extra years to wind up at Pepperdine.
Of course on a certain Puerto Rican team that same 1996 nationals were Angel Aja and Hector Lebron. It was a good year for setters. Although they are all great players I'm not sure any would give Ball a run for the starting job.
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Post by simplycurious on Jul 13, 2004 15:02:02 GMT -5
I was there during the summer of 2001 when all of the mentioned parties (Gisslen, Taliaferro, Barnett & Suxho) were present and training with the team. During that time, Doug was pretty high on Brandon, but he never seemed to perform consistently enough in matches. Sometimes he'd be great, other times mediocre at best. Keith also never really matured, thus never fit in well with the squad. He was always "Kevin's little brother" and just didn't perform at the level an international setter needs to in order to get more consideration. Chris is still in Colorado Springs training with the team and Donald, as we know, is going to Athens behind Lloy. Interestingly enough, with all the criticism that Doug receives from people on this board about 'playing favorites', he's never been that high on Chris or Donald. Each has had to work incredibly hard to maintain their position on the training roster (and occasionally break into the travelling roster for a tournament or series of exhibition matches). I don't have the answers for who our next setter will be, but just thought I'd comment on some of the people being discussed based on my experiences with them. Let the debate continue...
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Post by sonofbarcelonabob on Jul 13, 2004 17:17:39 GMT -5
I was there during the summer of 2001 when all of the mentioned parties (Gisslen, Taliaferro, Barnett & Suxho) were present and training with the team. During that time, Doug was pretty high on Brandon, but he never seemed to perform consistently enough in matches. Sometimes he'd be great, other times mediocre at best. Keith also never really matured, thus never fit in well with the squad. He was always "Kevin's little brother" and just didn't perform at the level an international setter needs to in order to get more consideration. Chris is still in Colorado Springs training with the team and Donald, as we know, is going to Athens behind Lloyd. Interestingly enough, with all the criticism that Doug receives from people on this board about 'playing favorites', he's never been that high on Chris or Donald. Each has had to work incredibly hard to maintain their position on the training roster (and occasionally break into the travelling roster for a tournament or series of exhibition matches). I don't have the answers for who our next setter will be, but just thought I'd comment on some of the people being discussed based on my experiences with them. Let the debate continue... If Gisslen is in Colorado Springs, he must be working across the street from the USOTC at the 7-11, because I haven't seen him. The only person named Chris who is a setter and has been training with the team in the last 2 years is Chris SEIFFERT (from LBSU) not Gisslen. Oh, and Ball's first name is Lloy, not Lloyd. Spelled exactly like the way he plays volleyball - no "D". I've seen middle-age women in the Rec "C" Co-ed division dig more balls in the right-back than Lloy does in a match. |
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Post by simplycurious on Jul 13, 2004 17:39:16 GMT -5
If Gisslen is in Colorado Springs, he must be working across the street from the USOTC at the 7-11, because I haven't seen him. The only person named Chris who is a setter and has been training with the team in the last 2 years is Chris SEIFFERT (from LBSU) not Gisslen. Oh, and Ball's first name is Lloy, not Lloyd. Spelled exactly like the way he plays volleyball - no "D". I've seen middle-age women in the Rec "C" Co-ed division dig more balls in the right-back than Lloy does in a match. Well, I was talking with Suxho in Houston and that's what he told me. I believe he said Giss and not Chris (which could've meant Seiffert while I thought Gisslen), but it is possible in my old age that I misunderstood. Now with all of that said, it makes more sense to me that Seiff is still there training since Doug was more fond of him then Giss. Obviously I'm not there, so I don't know for sure. As far as misspelling Lloy's name, I apologize and have fixed it above. I do, however agree with your assessment of his defensive abilities. |
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Post by sonofbarcelonabob on Jul 13, 2004 17:40:31 GMT -5
Taliaferro has had lower back problems dating back to his UCLA days. He missed quite a bit of the early-to-middle part of the '99 season due to low back pain. He did eventually make it back by the playoffs, but they were eliminated in the first-round that season. He bounced back in 2000 to lead UCLA to a championship.
Taliaferro was on the roster as recently as the start of the 2003 training season for the USA Men. However, he re-injured himself and never made any appearances in 2003 with the team. He was listed on the roster when they held the exhibition tours with Korea in June/July 2003, but he had already gone home with injury. His place on the roster was taken for a short time by Chris Tamas from UOP, but he didn't stick for long with the program either.
Why Taliaferro would have been better than Ball -
1. proven winner - 2 NCAA titles and a runner-up finish in 4 years. Ball - nada.
2. true leader - when Taliaferro glares at a teammate or goes on an on-court rant, he means it. When Ball does it, its for show. Ball was, is, and always will be too concerned with what his teammates think about him and getting along with everyone to ever truly be the kind of leader to whip everybody into line when there's a job to be done.
3. intestinal fortitude - watch Taliaferro when his team is behind coming down to the wire in a close, heated match. His body English shows that he believes he can lead his team to win. Watch Ball on old tapes from Atlanta (especially the Cuba match) or any tape from Sydney and watch his body English when Team USA is behind or about to lose. That, more than anything else, shows me why a healthy Taliaferro would have been the correct choice to lead Team USA.
4. Better setter - anyone can see that. Ball is good when the passing is good and he doesn't have to chase down a pass. But he is horrible when having to make good sets off bad passes. He has never enough command over all of his sets and set locations, or the confidence to make the risky set in match situations. Taliaferro (like Stork and Dvorak and others from Team USA's past) could set anything from anywhere and wasn't afraid to set it.
5. Better blocker - blocking has never been about size. Ball has always been a mediocre blocker - lacks timing and instincts. Sure he can put up an impressive looking block because of his size, but internationally, most hitters have no problems going around him. In the 2000 quadrennial, Chip McCaw was often brought in for spot-blocking duty in place of Ball, even though he's 4 inches shorter - because McCaw was a better blocker.
6. Better server - Ball's jumpserve was impressive in '94 when he joined the team full-time. By today's standards it's fairly average. Suxho has a better serve, and Taliaferro's serve was better than Suxho's. Seen both Taliaferro and Suxho play enough times over the years. Head-to-head, the last memory I have of the two of them is in the 2000 MPSF championships at Firestone. No question Taliaferro outplayed Suxho, and his serve was blistering.
But...all water under the bridge. Ball remains the starting setter for Team USA, Taliaferro has moved on with his life - still occassionally plays on the AVP Tour. Let's just hope that the USA Men can rebound from their previous two performances in the Olympics. Not much attention being payed to them, and it would be a major surprise if they even bring home a medal.
If Team USA has another bad performance, I would think that it really would be time to sit down and re-evaluate Beal's position as head coach. The USA Women have found success by looking outside the country for fresh perspectives and approaches to training. I will say that there are men's players who could have been major contributors to the National Team program who did not come to C. Springs following their collegiate careers because Beal was the coach. Much like Toshi was able to get Keba to return to the USA Women because the other players in training spoke so highly about him to Keba, maybe the USA Men could retain some of their better talent and keep them motivated to play and represent the USA if they had a coach that brought new energy and was more of a player's coach than Beal is.
4.
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Post by simplycurious on Jul 13, 2004 17:52:54 GMT -5
Excellent points and post SOBB! I agree with your assessment of Brandon (especially regarding his jump serve) and saw many of the things you outlined when I was with the team (briefly) in 2001. Doug was always a 'Brandon fan', but you're correct in saying that his injuries played a large part in his (eventually) being released from the team. Now, the consistancy factor that I mentioned previously was certainly something that raised eyebrows amongst the staff, but the fact still remains that Doug wanted things to work out for Brandon and it's sad that it didn't. I agree with you about Lloy (look I got it right!) and fear our men are in for a(nother) disappointing Olympics!  |
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Post by Bookumdanoaloha on Jul 14, 2004 0:43:54 GMT -5
Not to be a Hawaii/Homer. But take a good look at Brain Beckwith, next year's setter for Hawaii. He got some valuable playing time, when Kimo Tuyay got hurt. Brian has some impressive wins vs. Penn State and UCLA. He was the MVP for the Jr. National Team last year, and is again the starting setter for the Jr. National Team this year. He is getting some valuable training with John Speraw, the Jr. National Team coach. He has more upside than Hillerbrand. Height and better blocker. With Hawaii's poor passing, Brian will learn how to get to the ball alot quicker, and with his height he'll be able to save more bad passes. My only concern is that he is so "So Cali", laid back and easy going. He is young and it will be interesting to see how he handles the Hawii offense. I think Coach Speraw and give you a better assessment of Brian. Bookumdanoaloha
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Post by doctordubya on Jul 14, 2004 4:28:54 GMT -5
Interesting to note how Ball was received when he played for Modena in the Italian Serie A1. The Italian press had some interesting assessments of his skills - they generally rated his jump serve very highly, but I remember one report on the final play-offs last year starting with "Ball's location was better than usual..."
Also worth noting that Modena would block Ball in position 4 and have the adjacent OH (usually Giani) block at 2. Ball did achieve quite a following amongst the Modena fans, though (they seemed to like the reputation/attitude/tattoo side of the guy).
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Post by BeiBei on Jul 14, 2004 4:40:30 GMT -5
. 6. Better server - . Seen both Taliaferro and Suxho play enough times over the years. Head-to-head, the last memory I have of the two of them is in the 2000 MPSF championships at Firestone. No question Taliaferro outplayed Suxho, and his serve was blistering. 4. Hmm, I am pretty sure this matchup did not happen in 2000 at Firestone because I remembered Pepperdine beat USC in the semi and lost to UCLA in the final. Although in the only matchup between UCLA and USC in 2000, USC won 3-2 which is their first win over UCLA in a long time and they has not won against UCLA since |
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Post by sonofbarcelonabob on Jul 14, 2004 15:00:47 GMT -5
Hmm, I am pretty sure this matchup did not happen in 2000 at Firestone because I remembered Pepperdine beat USC in the semi and lost to UCLA in the final. Although in the only matchup between UCLA and USC in 2000, USC won 3-2 which is their first win over UCLA in a long time and they has not won against UCLA since You are right, my mistake. UCLA beat LMU in one semi, and USC and Pepp had one hell of a barnburner in the other semi. I'll change "head-to-head" to "saw them play at the same place at the same time". Stephen Dunne, of LMU that year, was a good setter and a great floor leader. His only drawback was size, he was generously listed at 5'11". |
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Post by sonofbarcelonabob on Jul 15, 2004 3:08:09 GMT -5
Only current college setter I see with international potential is Hildebrand. He's kinda like a guy who played before him at LBSU (Seiffert) but more flashy and more attitude. A bit more physical too. He'll have to pump up his blocking, defense and serving in the next couple years, but his setting is alread pretty good. I like the fact that he's not afraid to make risky sets in match situations, something that has been missing from the USA offense (particularly it's transition offense) for a long, long time. But, if Beal stays on as National Team coach after Athens and gets ahold of Hildebrand, he'll probably stifle all the creativity and free-thinking and turn him into another automaton USA Men's setter. 4-1-5 and 4-1-D and the low pipe in transition, baby, that's all we run here on the USA men's team! (Well...ok...the occasional 31 to Hoff, and maybe a red to the right pin if Billings is in for Stanley).
If you could take a couple of UCSB guys and have them trade bodies, you'd have a pretty damn good setter. Take Kowalski's intensity, quickness, and game smarts and put them in Jensen's body and add Jensen's setting ability - that would be something. Kowalski's also a wickedly good defensive player in RB, and has an unorthodox but effective jumper - not heavy heat, but he can make that thing dive off the table like nobody's business. Kowalski's setting (especially his address position and where he takes the ball on platform) needs some help. Never did get to see that 3rd guy that Preston had setting last season since I moved away from SoCal.
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