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Serving
Nov 11, 2004 13:45:04 GMT -5
Post by socalbud on Nov 11, 2004 13:45:04 GMT -5
Enjoyed the thread by vb re blocking. Good discussion. Would like to read a good discussion about serving, jump and float. This is probably one of the most frustrating parts of the game for fans to watch. A team wins a great, hard fought rally, then nets the next serve. I don't see coaches going crazy over bad serves (very often). It just seems the % of playable serves is not what it could be. When I hear coaches make comments like - I'll take 2 serves with heat to 1 error - it seems like low expectations. Are jump serves with heat so technically difficult that the current % is acceptable? High, medium or low toss to set up the swing? % of aces from float v jump? Fire away.
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Serving
Nov 11, 2004 14:47:43 GMT -5
Post by Mr. Pink on Nov 11, 2004 14:47:43 GMT -5
socalbud, you have never seen the IPFW coach go nuts over missed serves. I saw his team play a couple of times...its fun to watch his antics.
Anyway, I think a good coach knows when his/her team can be conservative on the serve or aggresive. I believe that if you are down by five or more at the end of a game and the other team is strong at the sideout, serve away! On the other hand, if its close, be a little more conservative and push for them to make the errors. I also think that if you can serve to where you want on the court with a float, sometimes that is more advantageous than a hard jump to the center of the court. It will at least take the team out of their rhythm. As for the toss, it depends on the server and their coordination.
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Serving
Nov 12, 2004 3:20:58 GMT -5
Post by doctordubya on Nov 12, 2004 3:20:58 GMT -5
The balance of serve vs pass dictates the result of most rallies. Serving is a key skill overlooked by many coaches - it is the only time during a game of volleyball that any player has complete control over the ball and significant time to think about what to do with it.
Decent players should be able to float serve the ball to any position on court. Deep float serves have been made less effective by the looser rules on overhand passing over the last few years, but short drop-serves can still be hugely effective when targeted at quick attackers or into the path of a penetrating setter.
There are a whole bunch of traditional rules about when you should just get the serve in. After a long rally, after a time-out, when your team has got the side-out after a run of points to the opponents... For me the really key one is that you don't miss a serve after your team has won a really big point (amazing digs, long rally etc).
As for jump spin serves - don't do them unless you're going to hit the ball hard. There is no speed-accuracy trade-off on these - if you're going to miss, you're going to miss, errors are usually due to the toss.
The tolerability of errors depends on the level. At low to intermediate levels, any missed serve is a waste as side-out percentages are generally low. At good levels of play, the overall team service should provide a ratio of ace:error no worse than 1:2, and serve-induced point (aces, passes ranking a 1):error ratio no worse than 1:1.
I'll bring in a final point that I think is important for coaches. If you want your players to hit jump spin serves, you should define before a game who will be hitting jump spin and who will be floating. Then tell the jump servers that they can float if they are not comfortable with their jump service - but if they are going to go for the jumper, they are going to have to hit it. If the coach takes responsibility for his jump servers' errors, it takes the pressure off the players and also reduces the impact on team spirit when serve errors are made.
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matty11
Sophomore
Player
Posts: 106
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Serving
Nov 12, 2004 10:38:20 GMT -5
Post by matty11 on Nov 12, 2004 10:38:20 GMT -5
The balance of serve vs pass dictates the result of most rallies. Serving is a key skill overlooked by many coaches - it is the only time during a game of volleyball that any player has complete control over the ball and significant time to think about what to do with it. Decent players should be able to float serve the ball to any position on court. Deep float serves have been made less effective by the looser rules on overhand passing over the last few years, but short drop-serves can still be hugely effective when targeted at quick attackers or into the path of a penetrating setter. There are a whole bunch of traditional rules about when you should just get the serve in. After a long rally, after a time-out, when your team has got the side-out after a run of points to the opponents... For me the really key one is that you don't miss a serve after your team has won a really big point (amazing digs, long rally etc). As for jump spin serves - don't do them unless you're going to hit the ball hard. There is no speed-accuracy trade-off on these - if you're going to miss, you're going to miss, errors are usually due to the toss. The tolerability of errors depends on the level. At low to intermediate levels, any missed serve is a waste as side-out percentages are generally low. At good levels of play, the overall team service should provide a ratio of ace:error no worse than 1:2, and serve-induced point (aces, passes ranking a 1):error ratio no worse than 1:1. I'll bring in a final point that I think is important for coaches. If you want your players to hit jump spin serves, you should define before a game who will be hitting jump spin and who will be floating. Then tell the jump servers that they can float if they are not comfortable with their jump service - but if they are going to go for the jumper, they are going to have to hit it. If the coach takes responsibility for his jump servers' errors, it takes the pressure off the players and also reduces the impact on team spirit when serve errors are made. Excellent analysis. However i find that a nice off speed jump serve works magic if and only if its done at the right time. I would suggest throwing one in between all the ripped serves to keep the passers honest. I can usually tell when the passers are expecting a ripped jump serve (i.e. stand way in the back of the court, are flat footed or on the back of their heels) and thats when i try to throw in an off speed serve.
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Serving
Nov 12, 2004 15:05:50 GMT -5
Post by cyberVBmidwest on Nov 12, 2004 15:05:50 GMT -5
The tolerability of errors depends on the level. At low to intermediate levels, any missed serve is a waste as side-out percentages are generally low. At good levels of play, the overall team service should provide a ratio of ace:error no worse than 1:2, and serve-induced point (aces, passes ranking a 1):error ratio no worse than 1:1. I have also heard a college coach give a 1 ace to every 3 service errors as a good ratio.
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Serving
Nov 12, 2004 23:27:20 GMT -5
Post by Semp12 on Nov 12, 2004 23:27:20 GMT -5
I feel even more important than aces is the amount of serves that cause the other team trouble. Servers do not get credit when they serve tough and cause the other team pass off the net, which then results in an easier attack at the defense.
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Serving
Nov 15, 2004 3:27:09 GMT -5
Post by doctordubya on Nov 15, 2004 3:27:09 GMT -5
However i find that a nice off speed jump serve works magic if and only if its done at the right time. I would suggest throwing one in between all the ripped serves to keep the passers honest. I can usually tell when the passers are expecting a ripped jump serve (i.e. stand way in the back of the court, are flat footed or on the back of their heels) and thats when i try to throw in an off speed serve. Agreed. Once the passers respect your power, an off-speed jumper can be lethal. Takes a good player to have that level of control, but if you can do it that's terrific.
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Serving
Nov 15, 2004 10:04:52 GMT -5
Post by My2Sense on Nov 15, 2004 10:04:52 GMT -5
In a perfect world...
I would like to see a stat collumn for serves that result in an overpass or even just a bad pass. The intention of hard serving is to cause the receiving team to have a difficult time setting up an offensive shot. If the serve keeps it from happening it is a critical element of the match, and there are no stats that give credit to that aspect. Thoughts?
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Serving
Nov 15, 2004 10:16:19 GMT -5
Post by Mr. Pink on Nov 15, 2004 10:16:19 GMT -5
I see what your saying and I agree, the closest thing to see those numbers would to track the opposing teams passing ratio (2.2 out of a 3.0, etc.). The problem with that is there are setters that can run the middle off of a 2 pass, it gets real subjective. I think they only run stats officially because you can see aces and errors. Its a definite number. I don't think we will see anything other than that. If you try to rate someones serving effectiveness, that too would be tough. You might get a weak server but a real strong defensive lineup. I think it is something you can do for own team to judge team effectiveness during a rotation, and if there is a weakness, look and find out why.
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Serving
Nov 15, 2004 10:21:01 GMT -5
Post by My2Sense on Nov 15, 2004 10:21:01 GMT -5
I agree. Perhaps an "OP" column for "Over Pass" would work. That's something you can see and isn't subjective. Just one more detail for the official scorer to have to keep an eye on in the heat of the action, eh.
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Serving
Nov 16, 2004 1:06:12 GMT -5
Post by vb on Nov 16, 2004 1:06:12 GMT -5
NEVER EVER!!! hit a lollipop serve to libero
ALWAYS serve to setter hit seams serve to players left
Someday, some coach somewhere...will figure out serving errors costs games. Until that day...blast away at a 1/3 ratio.
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Serving
Nov 16, 2004 9:21:56 GMT -5
Post by Mr. Pink on Nov 16, 2004 9:21:56 GMT -5
Are all coach's stupid for accepting errors? While I do agree that error's cost points, even games and matches; you can't have both an aggressive service and no errors though. That's "Perfect VB World" stuff. I still believe your serving strategy depends on the situation. There are times to be aggressive and times to be conservative. That's why a good coach will teach young players not only to jump serve, but float to specific zones as well. I see too many college coaches calling zones on the bench, but never practicing just serving to those zones in practice. Then they get mad at the player for missing the zone. A bit hypocritical?
I just remember a few year's ago a player for OSU in the stats had 90+ serving errors. Three sets or One Match worth of errors!
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Serving
Nov 16, 2004 10:36:15 GMT -5
Post by doctordubya on Nov 16, 2004 10:36:15 GMT -5
I see too many college coaches calling zones on the bench, but never practicing just serving to those zones in practice. Then they get mad at the player for missing the zone. A bit hypocritical? Yes. A coach should not expect his players to be able to do in a match anything that they have not practised in training. There's a good article by Carl McGown that talks about players learning skills in terms of acquiring muscle motor programs - IMO this should be the foundation of any coach's philosophy. If you haven't taught or trained serving short on position 2, you can't expect your players to be able to do it just because they can usually serve a ball into court. You can only take this idea so far, as all sports are unpredictable. That's why exercises like virus drills are so important - players also need to practise playing when they are thrown out of system, otherwise they will be hopeless when something untoward happens in a match.
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