|
|
Post by cyberVBmidwest on Dec 21, 2004 9:20:54 GMT -5
Perhaps this board can draft a process for clearning international players for NCAA competition? I'll offer some initial thoughts and then throw it to the group to add, subtract and comment on.
1) Players must meet university and NCAA college admission requirements
2) Players must not have played in a professional match prior to and during their current NCAA elgibility.
a) Written certification from country of origin's FIVB recognized authority that the player has not played in a professional match
b) Player is responsible for obtaining the written certification, not the school. Player cannot play until letter is received. (player needs to push their country to act faster, not the univeristy or NCAA)
c) Player may work out with a professional team in their country but may not play in any league, country organization santioned or FIVB santioned match. A letter from team management must be received prior to being deemed elgible.
d) Playing in professional Beach volleyball does not impact elgibility (still elgible if all other conditions are met).
Other ideas: number of years to be elgible, recertification every year, age limit, etc....
|
|
|
|
Post by fanogvb on Dec 22, 2004 8:50:13 GMT -5
why clear professional players from other countries when there are plenty of USA guys vying for spots? Professionals should play professionally....amateurs should be amateurs.
|
|
|
|
Post by northshore on Dec 22, 2004 11:54:30 GMT -5
I think that was the idea of the clearing process....to insure international players were not professional players. Not all international players are professionals. And, I agree, it would be nice to recruit players from home first, especially if they are the same caliber as the int'l players. That would be ideal for most college coaches... to recruit high caliber or even average caliber players from home. But to keep up with the Jones' the coaches do what they have to in order to be competitive.
|
|
|
|
Post by cyberVBmidwest on Dec 22, 2004 13:34:12 GMT -5
why clear professional players from other countries when there are plenty of USA guys vying for spots? Professionals should play professionally....amateurs should be amateurs. Northshore addressed the amateur issue. Regarding USA guys, I agree with you conceptually but international recruiting is already established. The problem is that it is tarnishing the sport with two vacated National Championships. It would help if there were a definition of "cleared". Another idea to add to my DRAFT is to limit the number of international players on the active roster. This is done in some professional leagues in other parts of the world. |
|
|
|
Post by FUBAR on Dec 23, 2004 23:43:47 GMT -5
This is going to get thornier than you might think... Still, interesting and needed. 2) Players must not have played in a professional match prior to and during their current NCAA elgibility. What is a 'professional match?' The line overseas is very blury. 16yo's making nothing often play with 35yo's making fifty or a hundred dollars per match. Does this count as a 'professional match?' Where do you draw the line? ;D ;D General concept of getting bureaucracies to work any faster than they want to is amusing! There is already an FIVB (national team) exemption in the NCAA bylaws. As far as a letter from team management: A) they're probably not inclined to give one out because they're losing a good player and not getting any compensation (NCAA does not pay transfer fees). B) The letter would likely be faked by the poor kid (or someone sympathetic) who just wants to go to school in USA and cant get anyone in his home country or club to help him  If not faked, the likelyhood of his club rep being fully versed in the rediculous (to them) NCAA bylaws is slim. To him, it's a piece of paper that needs to be signed, so sign it if the kid wants this that bad ('disloyal, ungreatful brat anyway' - club rep's thinking...). Doesn't this disqualify american players? Surprisingly intelligent of the NCAA if they consider them different sports! Limiting the number of foreigners on each roster, and maybe an age limit seems the most fair. Maybe even a rule something like this: 6 years worth of foreign players for every 8 calender years per program (don't know if I'm expressing the idea clearly). If you have 3 foreign players on the roster this year, that's 3 foreign seasons; in the next 7 years you can only have 3 more. Maybe the numbers need revision, but this way programs don't become dependent year in and year out on foreign players. I think tying the rule to professionalism is the wrong way to look at it. Every athlete on scholarship is a professional athlete. American athletes on full scholarship in many cases are $ for $ more professional than the foreign 'professionals' that everyone is so worried about (especially true at private universities). |
|
|
|
Post by banthony2 on Dec 23, 2004 23:57:04 GMT -5
How about we just finally break it up into Div. 1 and Div. 2? Div. 1 would be all the teams with foregin players. Div. 2 would be those without foreign players. Seems simple enough.  |
|
|
|
Post by sonofbarcelonabob on Dec 24, 2004 1:05:59 GMT -5
How myopic this thread is. NCAA rules regarding eligibility extend to ALL SPORTS. Everytime this subject is broached, everyone approaches it merely from the perspective of men's volleyball.
|
|
|
|
Post by cyberVBmidwest on Dec 24, 2004 6:43:09 GMT -5
How myopic this thread is. Yes, and your thinking is so "In The Box", to borrow from the corporate world. It is easier to complain about things than it is to develop potential solutions. (I am not saying you have complained about the issue.... yet) NCAA rules regarding eligibility extend to ALL SPORTS. Everytime this subject is broached, everyone approaches it merely from the perspective of men's volleyball. True, but can volleyball develop their own criteria for proof of non-professionalism to prevent their sport from quickly losing all credibility? Are other NCAA sports having this problem? If yes, then what are they doing about it (if anything)? |
|
|
|
Post by cyberVBmidwest on Dec 24, 2004 7:02:03 GMT -5
What is a 'professional match?' The line overseas is very blury. 16yo's making nothing often play with 35yo's making fifty or a hundred dollars per match. Does this count as a 'professional match?' Where do you draw the line? Create a definition (with feedback), stick with it for a year to two then re-evaluate is one approach. ;D ;D General concept of getting bureaucracies to work any faster than they want to is amusing! My suggested approach is to place the burden of getting the country bureacracies to work for them (the prospective player). If the country is unwilling to quickly provide the proof then the prospective NCAA player cannot play. I am sure a group of experts will arise in each country to fulfill the need to get the NCAA non-professionalism letters just the way those experts have developed in the US for things like building permits, imports, etc.... (lobbyists, expeditors, etc...). As far as a letter from team management: A) they're probably not inclined to give one out because they're losing a good player and not getting any compensation (NCAA does not pay transfer fees). B) The letter would likely be faked by the poor kid (or someone sympathetic) who just wants to go to school in USA and cant get anyone in his home country or club to help him If not faked, the likelyhood of his club rep being fully versed in the rediculous (to them) NCAA bylaws is slim. To him, it's a piece of paper that needs to be signed, so sign it if the kid wants this that bad ('disloyal, ungreatful brat anyway' - club rep's thinking...). All good points but at least the letter is there. If a team gets caught forging letters, then they lose the credibility, not the US school. The global economy already recognizes the potential for forgery in countries that have less integrity and develops self policing including bans, limitations, etc... on those countries. Doesn't this disqualify american players? Surprisingly intelligent of the NCAA if they consider them different sports! I believe beach is already considered a different sport by the NCAA. (can someone verify this?) |
|
|
|
Post by sonofbarcelonabob on Dec 25, 2004 21:42:13 GMT -5
Yes, and your thinking is so "In The Box", to borrow from the corporate world. It is easier to complain about things than it is to develop potential solutions. (I am not saying you have complained about the issue.... yet) Do you even know what "In the box" thinking is? Or are you just throwing out that term because you think it sounds cool? If there's anyone who's thinking "in the box", it's you. Why should men's volleyball (an NCAA sanctioned sport) have it's own set of rules regarding eligibility? |
|
|
|
Post by cyberVBmidwest on Dec 26, 2004 11:31:56 GMT -5
Do you even know what "In the box" thinking is? Or are you just throwing out that term because you think it sounds cool? Good try but one of the many hats I wear is to help groups get "outside the box" in their thinking. I have helped dozens of work teams over the past 20 years. So YES, I know what I am talking about. Actually, "out of the box" is kind of old/overused so we avoid using it because it makes the younger crowd cringe when they hear it. If there's anyone who's thinking "in the box", it's you. Why should men's volleyball (an NCAA sanctioned sport) have it's own set of rules regarding eligibility? I see the text "have it's own set of rules" as a limiting factor in a groups thinking. It would be one of several things the group would be challenged with. SOBB, with your knowledge and experience, how would you draw up a solution if the NCAA came to you with the challenge of international players? All I see are your comments about the thread, nothing about what you might do. Are you "clueless" as to where to start? Somehow, I don't think that is the case.  |
|
|
|
Post by FUBAR on Dec 26, 2004 13:43:06 GMT -5
How myopic this thread is. NCAA rules regarding eligibility extend to ALL SPORTS. Everytime this subject is broached, everyone approaches it merely from the perspective of men's volleyball. Is it really THAT hard for you to sub "each sport's international governing body" for "FIVB?" Or "playing another sport professionally" for "playing in professional beach volleyball?" Those are the only two instances that this thread that refer specificly to vb. Now, do you have anything substantial to add? |
|
|
|
Post by sonofbarcelonabob on Dec 26, 2004 14:29:08 GMT -5
Is it really THAT hard for you to sub "each sport's international governing body" for "FIVB?" Or "playing another sport professionally" for "playing in professional beach volleyball?" Those are the only two instances that this thread that refer specificly to vb. Now, do you have anything substantial to add? Yes, all you idiots who want to spend all this wasted time/effort making this big grandstand production on how to "reform" eligibility issues for men's volleyball (a speck on the map of collegiate athletics), need to realize that the simplest solution to this problem can be solved by three simple words: FOLLOW THE RULES 99% of international players participating in collegiate athletics do so without incident throughout their entire careers. Coming up with some elaborate process of "screening" is useless. In both instances where titles were stripped in men's volleyball from member institutions, the problem WAS NOT the ruleset or how to better reform the ruleset, the problem was in a lack of disclosure (one by an athlete and one by a coach) which led to the problems. But, in typical "consultant" fashion, people like cyberVBmidwest think that coming in with guns blazing is the solution to the problem. Get a grip, the NCAA is smarter than you are and has invested alot more time than your amateur prognostications on this website on what is fair and ethical in collegiate athletics. No system in the world can work if those who participate under it don't follow the rules. |
|
|
|
Post by sonofbarcelonabob on Dec 26, 2004 14:44:41 GMT -5
BTW, if either one of you yahoos had taken the time to read the NCAA regulations, you would have seen that 90% of that stuff is ALREADY in the ruleset.
As for the FIVB writing a letter certifying an individual has not played professionally, that is just plain stupid. FIVB organizations have no impact on profesional leagues. It is not their reponsibility to babysit every friggin' volleyball player's professional/amateur status.
|
|
|
|
Post by FUBAR on Dec 26, 2004 22:05:52 GMT -5
Get a grip, the NCAA is smarter than you are... ROFL! Nice to meet you Mr. Brand. Go ahead, change your name to SonofMylesBrand now that we know who you are. |
|
If not faked, the likelyhood of his club rep being fully versed in the rediculous (to them) NCAA bylaws is slim. To him, it's a piece of paper that needs to be signed, so sign it if the kid wants this that bad ('disloyal, ungreatful brat anyway' - club rep's thinking...).
