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Post by sistahsledge on May 10, 2005 1:25:58 GMT -5
Does anyone know what ever happened to the X and tandems plays in men's volleyball. A few teams broke it out during the FF but it is so rare now in men's volleyball. In the 80's and early 90's it was a staple of almost every good team and was a big part of the success of the national team and the then dominant collegiate teams like UCLA and USC.
It can't just be the passing because MB's are still getting their swings and any pass good enough for a quick set is good enough for an X or tandem.
Are coaches too conservative? Are OH's not quick enough anymore?
I think it's the most exciting play in volleyball especially when the blockers are completely duped and the second hitter has a wide open net. It's the equivalent of a slam dunk in BBall.
Oh...and to the coaches who let their MB's run those girly-man slides...GIVE IT UP, ALREADY!!!
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Post by roy on May 10, 2005 1:29:46 GMT -5
I have seen some of it, but it always looks like once a team starts the play offs, they stop running these kind of plays. I have also noticed it on the women's side. Once teams get to the NCAA tournament, all the plays stop and teams run the most traditional offenses. I can't explain why, but I know I have seen teams running X plays and tandems during the regular season.
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Post by simplycurious on May 10, 2005 2:01:55 GMT -5
The most logical explanation that's readily available is that teams (and coaches) tend to get conservative during "crunch time" (ie. - post-season play). It's too bad because I agree that tandems and X-plays can be a viable part of a team's offense. As for the slide and it's place (or non-place) in the men's game...I won't open that Pandora's Box!  |
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Post by TrailMix on May 10, 2005 7:46:33 GMT -5
I'm playing at the international level, so my comments might not apply exactly to what you are talking about seeing in the university playoffs in the states. I didn't see any of said matches, nor can i be certain that my logic is the same that dictates the play of these teams. I think there is less tandem/X plays now because of the growth of the backrow attack from the middle. Many teams run "tandems" but the attack will come from the back row. Assuming a team has good blockers, there should be a lot of communication so if a front row attacker comes in for an "X" or "tandem" it narrows the field of play and can actually make the blocker's job easier. It's not uncommon for me to go up on the opposing middle and still be able to get a soft block block.
I think front row combos can be good as long as they still focus on spreading out the block. Bringing outside hitters in closer to the middle blocker is not a great idea in my opinion because it just makes things easier for the blockers, but again, this applies to good blocking teams, i imagine high school and weaker uni teams would have trouble. Running combos that spread out the floor such as running a distance set for the middle and a quick set over top just passed him is good because it still opens it up for the right side.
As for the middle one foot slide behind the setter, i think it can be good, but i don't like the fact that it often takes away one option, ie your right row opposite and it doesn't really spread out the floor as the left side blocker can lineup pretty easily. Having said that, i again, agree that it can be VERY useful versus weaker teams, but it is not something that has a consistent place at a very high level of volleyball.
Went through this quick and i'm sure different people have their opinions, and in the end, if it's working for you against the teams you're meeting, then go for it! This was meant more as a response to why these types of plays aren't seen more often at the higher levels of play (though i'm obviously more concerned about the international application.)
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Post by sonofbarcelonabob on May 10, 2005 10:34:59 GMT -5
The biggest reason that combo plays aren't run as frequently anymore, even when passing is good, is that most blocks are too well trained and too tall for these types of plays to be successful. In previous generations, when the athletes weren't as tall or athletic, combo plays worked. Nowdays, with MBs that are in the 6'7" to 6'9" range and just aboue every team going with a bunch-read blocking scheme, the only thing a combo play does is bring more blockers in to the point-of-attack.
Combo plays can still work, just not as often. You may see them once a game, 3x a match. But that's about it. I think I saw one tandem by Pepp in the final, and I've seen PSU run a few double-quicks, but that's about it.
The only thing that bugged me about setters who called combo plays is that 95% always set the "trick" or the second-tempo set in the combo. Almost like they had to set it or else the hitter would get pissed off, which is bogus. You can also set the quick, or even the high ball outside/backrow off a combo play. No one ever said you had to set the combo hitter.
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Post by TrailMix on May 10, 2005 11:22:44 GMT -5
Barcelona, my point exactly with regards to blocking. I find that in the few combos that I come across, the ones that succeed the most are those set away from the "combo," or those given to the middle, but rarely does setting the second tempo combo work. We always seem to get at least a soft block on the second tempo combo, with at least two, sometimes 3 blockers. As mentioned though, we don't come across too many simple combos or inexperienced setters at the international level and most good coaches now understand the importance of spreading out the offense across the net to make it more difficult for the blockers
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Post by IdahoBoy on May 10, 2005 16:02:33 GMT -5
Perhaps consider also the increased level of opponents for most teams as teams advance further into the playoffs. While these "trick" plays, such as the X are effective against lesser teams, there "savability" if that's a word, is far lower when the opponents sniff it out.
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Post by sonofbarcelonabob on May 11, 2005 19:09:16 GMT -5
I'd like to see some of the more creative plays brought back to the game....like the "pogo-stick" pump-2 set by the MB, or even the 31-fake-51-step-in play.
I think the Chinese women ran a pogo-stick pump-2 in last summer's Gold Medal match against Russia, I'd have to go back and look at it, but I'm pretty sure they did.
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Post by VBbeast on May 12, 2005 11:42:11 GMT -5
I think the biggest reason the tandem play went out of use was that everybody moved to the pinch blocking system that really was designed to control and shut down the middle portion of the court. Over that past 2 or 3 years you see more and more teams running faster tempo offenses to the pins to counter this.
Now this past year I am starting to see a trend to doing more commiting in the middle in a 1 v 1 sense. If this trend continues I would expect to see more teams start utilizing tandem plays again to exploit that and isolate the big OH even more in 1 v 1 blocking situations.
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Post by TrailMix on May 12, 2005 16:00:41 GMT -5
VB beast, sorry, your logic is wrong. If your middle is commiting on the opposing middle, bringing the OH in for a tandem gives him a better chance to block him. If you want to isolate the OH, of course you're gonna throw it outside, not bring him in to the middle. My earlier point was just that, it is easier as a middle to block when they bring the OH in, I can jump on the middle and still get up enough for a soft block on the middle. On the other hand, if i commit on the middle and they throw it outside, it's darn near impossible for me to land get over to the outside and get a solid block up. Don't know what level of volleyball you are looking at, but at a high level, it just makes it easier for the blockers to bring the OH in for a tandem. It certain doesn't give him a better chance at getting a 1 v 1 situation.
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Post by sonofbarcelonabob on May 12, 2005 16:42:10 GMT -5
VB beast, sorry, your logic is wrong. If your middle is commiting on the opposing middle, bringing the OH in for a tandem gives him a better chance to block him. If you want to isolate the OH, of course you're gonna throw it outside, not bring him in to the middle. My earlier point was just that, it is easier as a middle to block when they bring the OH in, I can jump on the middle and still get up enough for a soft block on the middle. On the other hand, if i commit on the middle and they throw it outside, it's darn near impossible for me to land get over to the outside and get a solid block up. Don't know what level of volleyball you are looking at, but at a high level, it just makes it easier for the blockers to bring the OH in for a tandem. It certain doesn't give him a better chance at getting a 1 v 1 situation. What is also true about most high-level MBs today (international, good collegiate programs with sound blocking technique) is that when MBs are NOT in commit mode (which is a majority of the time), all MBs are taught to read and make their blocking moves off the speed and trajectory of the set as it leaves the setter's hands. In the Ball-Setter-Ball-Hitter model for read-blocking, this would be the third element in that sequence, i.e. "the speed of the ball as it leaves the setter's hands". Any middle blocker that is somewhat adept at this will immediately recognize that the ball is NOT being set to the quick hitter (as even a 2 combo set comes out faster and on a more up-and-down trajectory than a first-tempo quick). The result would be that the combo hitter would be facing a two-or-sometimes-even-three person well-formed block if a tandem or an X is run and all of the opposing blockers make the right read. And since most team blocks have a base starting position, as was alluded to earlier, that is extremely pinched in to the middle of the court (tight bunch read), the blockers don't even have to make much of a lateral move, they are already within 3 feet of the position to get up to take away the tandem/x combo set. |
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Post by doctordubya on May 13, 2005 3:26:57 GMT -5
In the run-up to and during the 2000 Olympics, Brazil would always fake the x-play in rotation 1 (run by Giba from the front row OH position) by having the combo hitter come to a breakout point some way into court each time and then either continuing round for the x or suddenly breaking right and up (with almost slide footwork) for the 5.
So in effect, they would always fake the combo play even when running the 5 set. I don't think this worked very well, though (they weren't running it in the 2004 Olympics from what I saw). Against a spread block arrangement it might be effective, as it could conceivably draw the opposing leftside blocker towards the middle and then suddenly wrong-foot him - however, opposing blockers at the international level are pretty much always bunched anyway.
My feeling is that, for the reasons put very nicely by SoBB and Trailmix, tandem plays in the middle will probably now only be useful as an additional fake to hold the blockers in the middle slightly longer than they would for the quick set. For example, with three f/c hitters, I would like to see teams run the x-play or double-quick and set the backrow OH on the D... or in any situation, run the leftside-x (MB 31 and OH 2) and set the backrow OH on the A.
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Post by VBbeast on May 13, 2005 7:57:13 GMT -5
Trailmix you have fallen victim to part of the reason why the tandem doesn't work as well as it should. Most setters always set the x play when they call it. Just because you run the play doesnt mean you set it. In fact I think if you set it on more than a 1 out of 3 ratio you are setting it too much. The other thing with the tandem is you are trying to overload a zone so yes in one way you are bring the x player closer to the middle blocker but if you are running the tempos correctly the middle will have to commit if he wants to stop the middle, and if he does it would take a screw up from your setter and your x hitter in order for the middle blocker to make a play on the x hitter or the remaining 3rd option which could be a left front, right front or backrow option depending on what row you are in.
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Post by TrailMix on May 13, 2005 12:54:48 GMT -5
VBeast, read my second post. I mentioned just that, dumb setters always feel they should set the second tempo set.
As for not being able to go up on the middle and get up for the second tempo, high level college and international middles are good and big enough to go up on the middle and get a touch on a second tempo set. I remember many old high school matches of mine where blockers got burned jumping on the wrong guy for a tandem/x play, but i never said this applied to high school blockers. Back in college and now playing abroad, i tell you that i can jump with a middle, land, and get up to soft block a second tempo set. Then of course, i should mention that most middles at our level don't have to commit anyways, so that lessens the effect of these plays even more.
As for not being able to get to the "third" option, that's the case whenever the middle commits, not as a result of the tandem/x.
If i was coaching a high school team tomorrow, i'm sure i'd introduce the tandem/x combo plays as part of our arsenal, but the thread started asking why we don't see much use of these plays at a high level and that's what i've tried to address.
I hope VBbeast you didn't take my prior comment or this as a personal attack, it was not my meaning. Now if you don't mind, I need to go make up for a serious lack of partying now that our season is over and i have only a little time here before i head back to the states! Adios!
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