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Post by chipNdink on Apr 23, 2009 13:29:37 GMT -5
Nope ..if you want to start a thread about torture..I am your guy. I asked you to define torture..not some dictionary ... Torture is what you do to logic with your convoluted, twisted way of thinking.
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Post by oldman on Apr 23, 2009 13:53:16 GMT -5
You have absolutely zero proof that it saved countless lives and that it was only 3 individuals. You are also telling me, IF true, that the ends justified the means. I say that is a much more dangerous attitude. Furthermore, I was not limiting this to waterboarding. Even furthermore, the overall point is that this sort of dangerous behavior gets a pass over at Fox News whereas a handshake with Hugo is the end of the world. Glenn Beck is constantly referring to Obama as a totalitarian, but Bush gets a pass. You know, the guy who TORTURED people. You have no proof that it did not. And yes it did save lives listen to the news reports and if you have an open mind you will understand. But your a closed mind individual on this topic as shown from your statements here.
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Post by OverAndUnder on Apr 23, 2009 14:11:59 GMT -5
If "simulated" drowning makes it okay, then I think our country needs to go with "simulated" amputation (render them unconscious, tie them to a table, anesthetize their legs, smear the table and our clothes with blood and surgical saw, then wake them up and say we've cut off their legs and will start on their fingers next. If that doesn't work we can always try "simulated" threats to abduct and disembowel their children unless they give us information. We could take real video of their kids and then have Pixar make a convincing scene in which one of the kids is decapitated and the rest are huddled against the wall as our CIA butcher steps closer.
After all, it's not like we're really going to do it, and it doesn't leave any bruises on the subject, psychological pain isn't really real anyway, so there's no harm done.
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Post by OverAndUnder on Apr 23, 2009 14:17:18 GMT -5
So... according to the people who made clear their willingness and intent to use torture, torture works.
Man, what will you liberals and your gratuitous trust of the federal government come up with next? I hope someday you libs can join with us conservatives and recognize that the government lies to the citizens to get what it wants. I'll meet you back at this same spot in January 2013. You guys bring the picket signs and I'll bring the megaphone.
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Post by goGopherBill on Apr 23, 2009 14:50:18 GMT -5
First,
We trust government to keep us afe..#1 job Fact..any dispute?
We trusted government to tax us and not screw up.. Partisan polarity #1 .".we do it better "
The liberals trusted OBAMA for the bail out and tarp moneys..along with the leading congressional Democrats..
Have you got a stimulus yet? Fact is taxpayers are last on OBAMAS LIST.
The auto workers.. the banks ..the AIG..garbage...
and those who DONT PAY ANY INCOME TAX AT all ...all are a head of the middle class.
so dont come whining about BUSH this and Bush that.
Obama AND democrats HAVE ABOUT 1 YEAR TO MAKE A TURN AROUND...NOT ON TORTURE..BUT jobs AND THE ECONOMY..YOUR RETIREMENT.
BUT IT SO MUCH EASIER TO DEFLECT ATTENTION FROM WHAT REALLY MATTERS.
and place everything on Bush ....
again..
I think Dallas Tortured the Vikings with the H. Walker trade..lets go get em...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2009 15:10:33 GMT -5
You have absolutely zero proof that it saved countless lives and that it was only 3 individuals. You are also telling me, IF true, that the ends justified the means. I say that is a much more dangerous attitude. Furthermore, I was not limiting this to waterboarding. Even furthermore, the overall point is that this sort of dangerous behavior gets a pass over at Fox News whereas a handshake with Hugo is the end of the world. Glenn Beck is constantly referring to Obama as a totalitarian, but Bush gets a pass. You know, the guy who TORTURED people. You have no proof that it did not. And yes it did save lives listen to the news reports and if you have an open mind you will understand. But your a closed mind individual on this topic as shown from your statements here. I'm not the one who brought up the efficacy of torture, so why do I need proof? I also clearly said I don't belief the ends justify the means. What news reports are those? Fox? I have not seen any reputable news organization advance this claim. How does this make me "a closed mind individual"?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2009 15:19:41 GMT -5
The country formerly known as the USA. So, let me get this straight. Bunkerboy and his cronies tortured people to try to prove the Iraq-al Qaeda connection. You know, that one that never existed. But Fox is all hot and bothered about a handshake with Chavez? What has happened to this country? The COUNTRY STILL IS KNOWN AS USA... YOU LOSE. DEFINE BUNKERBOY and his cronies... I showed DEMOCRATS KNEW EVERY STEP OF THE WAY WHAT WAS GOING ON. BUSH informed and used the law and precedent.YOU LOSE., No, you didn't. There are reports that *some* Democrats (4?) knew. Pelosi, for one, denies it. If she's lying, she deserves hammering. But so what? NO. I am *specifically* referring to the reports that the men were tortured in order to produce a connection to Iraq. Now, I believe torture is wrong, period. But my point in the original post is that this is EVEN worse. They were torturing guys to produce info on a link that did not exist. Why, Bill? Answer that, and you're halfway there. Sorry, it is not affair to tie Hillary to Bill. His actions should not reflect on her credibility. But, again, this is irrelevant. As is the rest of your statement. I am still waiting: Why is Obama's handshake more important to Fox than the fact we tortured people in order to prove a non-existent connection between Iraq and al Qaeda? (Need I remind you that the Bush admin ended up invading Iraq? You may have forgotten.)
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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 23, 2009 15:21:56 GMT -5
I'd like to apply for a job with this company.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2009 15:25:25 GMT -5
First, We trust government to keep us afe..#1 job Fact..any dispute? I'd dispute this. Trust is the wrong word, regardless. What does this mean? Tax withholding has been reduced. You seem to be under the misconception that there are stimulus checks coming? Where'd you get that idea? I for one am thankful for the COBRA reduction. Fact is, there isn't much room left for tax reduction after W's mess. Take a look at your own state. Today's headlines: medical support gone, entire police force fired, etc. etc. So, the solution is to raise the income tax on people who barely have an income, in addition to the property taxes, sales taxes, user taxes, etc.? Well, you expect Obama to undo eight years of Bush damage in one year. Who is whining? Who is being unfair?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2009 15:27:13 GMT -5
I'd like to apply for a job with this company. You joke, but that's another side of this mess. The torture was performed by *contractors*. How does one even start a business that provides this service?
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Post by bunnywailer on Apr 23, 2009 15:49:10 GMT -5
Reading this thread was torture. Especially Ruffda's posts.
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Post by Pirate VB Fan on Apr 23, 2009 16:01:06 GMT -5
From an interview with Robert Mueller, Bush's FBI Director, last December:
I ask Mueller: So far as he is aware, have any attacks on America been disrupted thanks to intelligence obtained through what the administration still calls “enhanced techniques”?
“I’m really reluctant to answer that,” Mueller says. He pauses, looks at an aide, and then says quietly, declining to elaborate: “I don’t believe that has been the case.”
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Post by hammer on Apr 23, 2009 16:10:01 GMT -5
CIA = Crappy Intelligence Agency. Why do we need this agency? They had hundreds of detainees at Gitmo, and they only tortured 3 people? And the only info they got was a so-called "2nd Wave" cell that was going to hit L.A. with an airplane bomb. Apparently they had permission to waterboard many more. Then they released a bunch of those prisoners and now we find out some of them are high up the food chain in Al Qaeda helping out the Taliban. We are pouring billions of dollars into these spy agencies and getting very little in return. Hell, I'd rather give all that money to the thousands of homeless people in San Francisco to get them off the streets, and pay for their drugs too while were at it.
Please don't waste money on some show trial implicating a few Bush lawyers. Go after Bush, Rice, and Cheney ... they were upper management. Go after Pelosi too, even though I'm not sure she understood what waterboarding was when she was briefed. Maybe we should throw in Clinton, Bush I, and Carter too since they knew American Navy pilots were being waterboarded as part of their training. Whatever, don't waste our money and time on small potatoes.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2009 16:37:55 GMT -5
Reading this thread was torture. Especially Ruffda's posts. This is cruel. Humane, maybe. But cruel.
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Post by OverAndUnder on Apr 23, 2009 16:50:38 GMT -5
CIA = Crappy Intelligence Agency. Why do we need this agency? Ask RFK. You can find him in Arlington, VA.
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