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Post by howiseturmother on Oct 2, 2009 8:19:38 GMT -5
I attended the St. Louise and RI match last wknd, and the ref was very generous with his calls. He might have about 5 double contacts on SLU'S setter and a few on RI. It seemed to me that some of the refs are now more flexible with sets. Are we heading into the right direction? Or maybe it's just me as a setter with solid hands and expects setters at this level to be much much more polished.
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Post by stand on Oct 2, 2009 8:23:21 GMT -5
OK, I know this is irrelevant to competitive play, but when I play I like it better when we don't have a ref. It tends to keep the play honest when people have to call their own faults. When a ref is there, some people just try to get away with things.
So is it stupid to allow players/coaches to correct the ref when a bad call goes their way? In the 2008 NC, both coaches knew the officials had the score wrong. Both coaches told the ref what the correct score was. And yet the error was allowed to stand. Why?
If a ref or linesman doesn't see the call, why don't they just admit it. I see refs in pro football games get together and talk about it when they are not sure what happened, and then make a call. I understand a ref being reluctant to overrule a linesman, since the linesman is right on top of the ball. But sometimes that isn't the easiest angle to judge a ball from. Why don't they huddle up more and make sure they get it right?
I understand that refs are human, and there is no excuse to "go Serena" on them. But it is lot easier to forgive their mistakes when they are willing to admit that they are human and make mistakes.
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Post by WI FIB on Oct 2, 2009 8:41:36 GMT -5
I'd have to nominate last year's crew for the NCAA women's championship match. Totally bungled up the score and award the point to the wrong side after Nicole Fawcett scored off the touch. R1, R2, line judges, plus 3 additional officials at the scorer's table. All supposedly hand-picked for the match. And NONE of them can keep the correct score. Lame. Remind me again which line judge is in charge of the score.
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Post by kolohekeiki on Oct 2, 2009 9:04:05 GMT -5
I attended the St. Louise and RI match last wknd, and the ref was very generous with his calls. He might have about 5 double contacts on SLU'S setter and a few on RI. It seemed to me that some of the refs are now more flexible with sets. Are we heading into the right direction? Or maybe it's just me as a setter with solid hands and expects setters at this level to be much much more polished. I don't know if it's the same every where, but I know there are some refs that will make calls based on the level of the competition...if both setters aren't that great (and I don't mean this in an offensive way), they will let more calls slide and will be more liberal on their calls... But if the play is top of the line, then the calls will become more tight and tough and they won't let any misshandled ball slide...
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Post by OverAndUnder on Oct 2, 2009 9:08:33 GMT -5
no need to mention experience, if you cannot control the match you are a terrible referee. I nominate the line judges of the Serbian Volleyball Federation at this years World League Finals! who needs to have experience to view this as bad officiating? That went far beyond "bad" officiating. That was corrupt officiating - a more or less blatant attempt to control the match outcome.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2009 9:20:58 GMT -5
I was a student coach my senior year of high school and got a "team yellowcard" because I refused to accept a referee's call - it was a slow, slow ball, about four feet IN, at least, and the ref called it out. I gave them hell. Our coach didn't mind - she knew the refereeing was a big joke in this match. Got the yellow card. Went to eat after the match and the refs were there, too. The ref who made the terrible call came and apologized to me, saying she realized about five minutes after the call that she was looking at the 10-foot-line as the out of bounds for that particular play. WTF??
Last weekend Brook Dieter was literally standing ON the line facing out of bounds and a ball dropped in front of her and the ref called it in.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2009 9:26:56 GMT -5
I'm sorry but this is one of my biggest pet peeves about this sport, there is plenty people that complain and put refs down, but refs never get thanked or appreciated for what they do... Without refs our kids wouldn't even be playing... 1. This is not a volleyball-specific thing, at all. Every sport is officiated, and every sport's fans have the same frustrations. 2. Your statement that without refs, our kids wouldn't be playing... isn't it more like "without kids playing volleyball, our referees wouldn't have jobs (as referees)?" It doesn't help strengthen your argument here; that's like saying "Stop ranting about Mikasa. Without them, we wouldn't have volleyballs to play with." Yes we would, we'd just get different ones... As long as kids keep playing volleyball, people will still become referees. The sport isn't in danger of extinction due to a referee shortage.
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Post by kolohekeiki on Oct 2, 2009 9:37:35 GMT -5
I'm sorry but this is one of my biggest pet peeves about this sport, there is plenty people that complain and put refs down, but refs never get thanked or appreciated for what they do... Without refs our kids wouldn't even be playing... 1. This is not a volleyball-specific thing, at all. Every sport is officiated, and every sport's fans have the same frustrations. 2. Your statement that without refs, our kids wouldn't be playing... isn't it more like "without kids playing volleyball, our referees wouldn't have jobs (as referees)?" It doesn't help strengthen your argument here; that's like saying "Stop ranting about Mikasa. Without them, we wouldn't have volleyballs to play with." Yes we would, we'd just get different ones... As long as kids keep playing volleyball, people will still become referees. The sport isn't in danger of extinction due to a referee shortage. 1) Duh I know it's not volleyball specific I jus play volleyball that's why I'm relating it to volleyball and not to mention this is a volleyball message board...I watch other sports and know there is bad officiating in other sports, but hello we are all human and make mistakes so there won't be perfect officiating in any sport and there isn't one ref that will satisfy every single fan, player and coach...there is always going to be someone that disagrees with some call during a game! 2) No I think that without officials we won't be playing the game, because there will always be kids playing the sport, maybe in your state there isn't a shortage of officials but in other areas there are...and obviously people don't wanna become refs if there isn't that many because of all the garbage they get from fans, coaches and players! Where I live they are always looking and asking for officials! Who would want to ref matches when they are always disrespected and not aprreciated for what they do...have you ever tried reffing a game and see how hard it is and make every call correctly? And your comparing this arguments to a brand of volleyballs, obviously if they stop making Mikasa balls you can switch to a different brand...but I'm sorry there is no such thing as different brands of refs! So your argument makes no sense what so ever!
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Post by bigfan on Oct 2, 2009 9:56:28 GMT -5
Without refs our kids wouldn't even be playing...and if you've never been a ref or have experience being a ref then I don't think you should be talking down about bad officiating... Amen to this. I have been a high school basketball ref for the last 15 years and IT IS HARD TO DO!
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Post by ugopher on Oct 2, 2009 10:26:07 GMT -5
Without refs our kids wouldn't even be playing...and if you've never been a ref or have experience being a ref then I don't think you should be talking down about bad officiating... Amen to this. I have been a high school basketball ref for the last 15 years and IT IS HARD TO DO! I agree that officials are important to the game, any game. Are there bad officials? Of course. Are they bad on purpose? I hope not. My original post about posting your officiating experience is based upon bigfan's comment. It is not easy to do. Lots going on and split second decision. It is easy to sit in the stands and criticize. And those who do, consider becoming an official yourself. I used to be horrible at this stuff. Played softball and had a difficult time with bad calls. Then I umpired for a tournament and later a couple of leagues. My perspective totally changed. I still get upset but more around officials who are either lazy or not engaged. What I like about JO volleyball is that teams have to officiate their matches. Gives players a different point of view and some understanding as to what it is like to officiate a game/match.
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Post by BearClause on Oct 2, 2009 10:35:22 GMT -5
[What I like about JO volleyball is that teams have to officiate their matches. Gives players a different point of view and some understanding as to what it is like to officiate a game/match. Not sure about that. I've seen some club tournaments and the players calling lines often look like they'd rather be somewhere else. I was at a men's college club tournament (with a few NCAA teams invited). I remember one of the down refs (from a team) almost lost it when questioned about a call. It was a bit chaotic. I don't know if the players understand, since they don't necessarily seem to take it seriously.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2009 10:48:40 GMT -5
1. This is not a volleyball-specific thing, at all. Every sport is officiated, and every sport's fans have the same frustrations. 2. Your statement that without refs, our kids wouldn't be playing... isn't it more like "without kids playing volleyball, our referees wouldn't have jobs (as referees)?" It doesn't help strengthen your argument here; that's like saying "Stop ranting about Mikasa. Without them, we wouldn't have volleyballs to play with." Yes we would, we'd just get different ones... As long as kids keep playing volleyball, people will still become referees. The sport isn't in danger of extinction due to a referee shortage. 1) Duh I know it's not volleyball specific I jus play volleyball that's why I'm relating it to volleyball and not to mention this is a volleyball message board...I watch other sports and know there is bad officiating in other sports, but hello we are all human and make mistakes so there won't be perfect officiating in any sport and there isn't one ref that will satisfy every single fan, player and coach...there is always going to be someone that disagrees with some call during a game! 2) No I think that without officials we won't be playing the game, because there will always be kids playing the sport, maybe in your state there isn't a shortage of officials but in other areas there are...and obviously people don't wanna become refs if there isn't that many because of all the garbage they get from fans, coaches and players! Where I live they are always looking and asking for officials! Who would want to ref matches when they are always disrespected and not aprreciated for what they do...have you ever tried reffing a game and see how hard it is and make every call correctly? And your comparing this arguments to a brand of volleyballs, obviously if they stop making Mikasa balls you can switch to a different brand...but I'm sorry there is no such thing as different brands of refs! So your argument makes no sense what so ever! My point was that they will always find referees. They might have to look around, but they'll find some. It might seem like they won't - but trust me, the sport of volleyball is not going to disappear because they can't find referees. Sorry that I understood your frustration to be limited to volleyball - of course I realize this is a volleyball message board but saying "that's what I hate about THIS sport" was implying to me that you DON'T have that same frustration about "THAT" sport (aka - a different sport). Like you were differentiating volleyball from other sports because this was a difference. I guess I just have different views on this subject, so we'll just have to disagree - which is fine, nobody ever said we have to agree. I just don't think anyone meant harm or to put anyone in the spotlight regarding being a bad ref, but rather just to have discussion and share experiences of bad referees. Not everything that we discuss has to be giving props to someone or giving a warm fuzzy or whatever the heck you are expecting. PS - since you asked, yes I have reffed, line judged, and coached volleyball (although only at the high school level.) I also have coached and judged another competitive sport. If I were so sensitive that I'd be hurt to read someone's criticism of how well I performed, I'd probably avoid those possible sources. (What I'm saying is that if I were a ref and too sensitive to even POSSIBLY read someone's critique of my performance, I'd probably just avoid that source.)
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Post by Pirate VB Fan on Oct 2, 2009 11:45:07 GMT -5
Last week I was doing lines and the ref made a bad call (overruling me, without asking, on a ball four feet in front of me, but that is beside the point). A few minutes after that I thought he made a mistake the other way. At the next time out I went over a stood by the ref like we are supposed to do and we usually talk over some of the calls. I told him, "You know I was right." and he replied, with a big grin on his face, "Yeah, why do you think I made the second call?"
p.s. Whenever a ref does a really good job, I make sure I let them know I thought that.
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Post by BearClause on Oct 2, 2009 12:22:12 GMT -5
This story is a little different: I'm usually a loud obnoxious student at volleyball matches. I'll heckle the other team's coaches and players and also, when given a prime opportunity, I'll heckle officials for a bad call. Last spring we had a tournament with a bunch of different Florida teams. Because it was a spring match and a laid back atmosphere, I spent the majority of the matches talking to other fans instead of watching the match and cheering. Another fan by me didn't agree with a call and simply said "bad call ref! how'd you get this job?" The official then switched with one from the other court and the new one cam over to ME and my friends (not the fan who had made the comment) and told us that if we said one more word we would be forced to leave. Now, that's bad officiating. I think I might get a little bit of slack from some of our local officials if I yell at them from the stands. I know a few of them (including some of the nationally rated ones) and on occasion I've joked with a few of them off the court. I remember once for men's club I yelled at a ref (one who has done NCAA women's) "That was borderline man!" and he actually turned around and told me (with a smile) "Yeah - it was". I think if it was NCAA women's he wouldn't have done that since they typically expect officials to be stone-faced while they're at their duties. Club seems to be a bit more casual although they still strive for accuracy of their calls.
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Post by ugopher on Oct 2, 2009 12:40:50 GMT -5
[What I like about JO volleyball is that teams have to officiate their matches. Gives players a different point of view and some understanding as to what it is like to officiate a game/match. Not sure about that. I've seen some club tournaments and the players calling lines often look like they'd rather be somewhere else. I was at a men's college club tournament (with a few NCAA teams invited). I remember one of the down refs (from a team) almost lost it when questioned about a call. It was a bit chaotic. I don't know if the players understand, since they don't necessarily seem to take it seriously. I will agree with you there. I remember one JO tournament match where a line judge was checking her phone during play. Used it as a teaching/coaching moment for our players. And as upset as fans and players can get, referrees can also get out of control. Those do bug me.
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