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Post by NebraskaVBfan93 on Aug 18, 2011 22:06:48 GMT -5
I think that this is a great topic. I think there are 2 categories. Sports and "Skill Sports'. Sports include any sport that you actually play against your opponent by interaction ie. football, baseball, basketball, volleyball, wrestling, tennis, etc. . . . so that there is actually an offense and defense. Then there is the "Skill Sports" where skill is involved but you do not interact physically with your opponent so there is no offense or defense. Such skill sports are bowling, darts, golf, most track events, etc. Most, not all, of these are individual sports. I would consider race car driving a "sport" becuase there is actual interaction and offensive and defensive driving tactics that can affect your opponents. Excellent comments. Now I want to offer a few questions/comments for you to consider. First of all, I think there IS an offensive/defensive element to all the activities you listed as "skill sports", although it is predicated more on the score than on the actions of your opponent which is a important distinction, I think from the point you had made. Say I am behind 30 pins going into the last frame of our bowling game. I obviously need to do some work to catch up so I am going to do all I can try and throw strikes. I am going to be very offensive minded. But lets say I am only behind by 2 pins. Am I going to throw my usual hook that ideally gets within 4 boards of the gutter. Heck no! Straight ball right down the middle, that being a very defensive strategy. Questions. 1. Is it necessary to be and athlete or even possess I minimal level of athletic ability to compete and a high level in everything you might consider a sport? Keep in mind I am not talking about being fit. I know plenty of people who are fit that don't possess any athletic ability whatsoever. I also know some pretty athletic folks who are not all that fit. 2. This brings me to my next question. There has already been some "spirited" banter on this thread regarding auto racing which makes me somewhat hesitant to bring this up again. Be that as it may I will state my peace. First of all, I am very well aware and appreciate a great deal how skilled one has to be in order to be a world class racer car driver. I am, in fact a fan of most forms of auto racing. I also have no problem calling it a sporting event. What I question is the validity of referring to the act of driving a race car, even at the very highest level, an "athletic event." Now I am not saying all drivers who do this for a living are void of athletic abilities. I am also not suggesting that having a certain level of fitness isn't a good idea. What I am saying is the one does not need to possess even a modest amount of athletic ability to be an exceptional race car driver. Maybe not a good comparison, but do we consider pilots who fly fighter jets as athletes? Not that I've heard. And everything that makes a race car driver good at what they do is magnified many many times over when compared to the physical and mental demands a pilot has to deal with. I just don't buy that all sports require one to be athletic to be good at them. Someone mentioned hand-eye coordination. Of course that is part of many sports. But surgeons also must have excellent hand eye coordination. No one would ever say the act of surgery is an athletic event would they? One last thing. I totally disagree that there is not a transfer of skills from one sport to another. Obviously it's not a given from every sport to every other and the ability to make the transfer varies from person to person. I was well in to my adult years the first time I played soccer. I let it be known to the guys I played with I had zero experience. At the half more than one asked me if I really had never played. Now I wasn't very good at controlling the ball all the time, but because of having played basketball, football, volleyball, I was very good at spacial awareness in relationship to my place on the field and to the other players, both teammates and opponents. Also, because of having been a quarterback, I was pretty decent of the skill of leading the receiver of any pass I would make. Those are just two examples of learning one new sport. There are many others I could make. But alas, I am rambling so I will shut up for now.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2011 22:29:28 GMT -5
Husker, I don't think you're rambling and I also appreciate the skill involved with racing cars and flying jets, and I don't deny the physical shape one needs to maintain to be successful. Driving a vehicle, flying a plane involves mechanical, electrical, and hydraulic controls and powered by chemical fuel. The human element controls the moving body through those controls. I don't feel that either is an athletic endeavor. Because the human is controlling the machine and lots of different kinds of people can control machines. Lots of people can be trained to control machines.
Like I said before it is possible to have highly trained athletic players and highly trained unathletic players in different sports.
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Post by NebraskaVBfan93 on Aug 18, 2011 22:40:51 GMT -5
Well said.
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Post by mikegarrison on Aug 18, 2011 23:21:28 GMT -5
What I am saying is the one does not need to possess even a modest amount of athletic ability to be an exceptional race car driver. Maybe not a good comparison, but do we consider pilots who fly fighter jets as athletes? And I'm saying that's wrong. (And yes, fighter plane pilots are also athletes.) Driving a race car is a very physical skill. It takes fast and accurate footwork, hand/eye coordination, great balance, endurance (for longer races), a tremendous amount of concentration, and strength under g-loading. All of that is done under a very high level of stress. That all sounds pretty athletic to me. Klutzy people can drive their minivans around on the street, but you will never find any klutzy professional race car drivers. Similar for fighter pilots (although a typical flight will have a lot of time when their athletic attributes are not required).
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Post by mikegarrison on Aug 18, 2011 23:24:22 GMT -5
Because the human is controlling the machine and lots of different kinds of people can control machines. Lots of people can be trained to control machines. This is where the misconception comes in. It simply is not true that lots of people can be trained to be professional race car drivers. Only those who have never tried it would think that. In fact, it is a very rare set of physical abilities involved.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2011 10:31:47 GMT -5
Like the same skills required to be an awesome video game player? I think there is physical skill (a great deal of it) involved with controlling a large machine with great precision, but it isn't athletic skill. The machine is in motion, not the body. Maybe I exaggerated a little when I said a lot of people can be trained to operate machinery with such precision and control, so no not everyone can be trained to fly or drive a race car, but that is what flight and race physicals are for. Can your body handle the forces involved? Yes, well lets learn how to keep ourselves alive long enough to win the race. No, stick to the minivan. I think pilots and race car drivers fall into the category of highly trained non-athletes.
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Post by mikegarrison on Aug 19, 2011 14:06:04 GMT -5
Like the same skills required to be an awesome video game player? I think there is physical skill (a great deal of it) involved with controlling a large machine with great precision, but it isn't athletic skill. The machine is in motion, not the body. Maybe I exaggerated a little when I said a lot of people can be trained to operate machinery with such precision and control, so no not everyone can be trained to fly or drive a race car, but that is what flight and race physicals are for. Can your body handle the forces involved? Yes, well lets learn how to keep ourselves alive long enough to win the race. No, stick to the minivan. I think pilots and race car drivers fall into the category of highly trained non-athletes. Obviously I disagree. What most people don't understand is that driving a race car is *not* like playing a video game. It's a whole body experience -- you have to feel the car through your back and butt, knowing what it feels like when the rear wheels are just about to start losing grip. You get the force feedback through the wheel and the pedals. And you have to have an intuitive grasp of the physics involved. I know some of you who have never driven a car around a racetrack just will never believe me, but it's true. I go back to baseball. Anybody can train themselves to swing a stick and hit a ball, right? But can they get hits off of live pitching, much less major league pitching? In the same way, most people could be trained to drive a race car around the block, or even around a track if they did it slowly. But they can never be trained to be a top-level race car driver any more than your average Joe at the slo-pitch batting cage can be trained to be a major league hitter. You are extrapolating your own idea of what driving a race car is like far beyond where it is valid.
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Post by azvb on Aug 19, 2011 14:21:59 GMT -5
Mike, I believe it takes great skill to be a race car driver. Question: all these 1000's of fans that show up to watch races, are they aware of the skills you describe, or are they just waiting for a pile up?
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Post by mikegarrison on Aug 19, 2011 14:25:32 GMT -5
Mike, I believe it takes great skill to be a race car driver. Question: all these 1000's of fans that show up to watch races, are they aware of the skills you describe, or are they just waiting for a pile up? A mix of both, just like any sporting event. How many folks at a VB match notice when the MB alters a shot enough that it goes out even when she doesn't touch it?
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Post by azvb on Aug 19, 2011 14:32:52 GMT -5
I think that this is a great topic. I think there are 2 categories. Sports and "Skill Sports'. Sports include any sport that you actually play against your opponent by interaction ie. football, baseball, basketball, volleyball, wrestling, tennis, etc. . . . so that there is actually an offense and defense. Then there is the "Skill Sports" where skill is involved but you do not interact physically with your opponent so there is no offense or defense. Such skill sports are bowling, darts, golf, most track events, etc. Most, not all, of these are individual sports. I would consider race car driving a "sport" becuase there is actual interaction and offensive and defensive driving tactics that can affect your opponents. Excellent comments. Now I want to offer a few questions/comments for you to consider. First of all, I think there IS an offensive/defensive element to all the activities you listed as "skill sports", although it is predicated more on the score than on the actions of your opponent which is a important distinction, I think from the point you had made. Say I am behind 30 pins going into the last frame of our bowling game. I obviously need to do some work to catch up so I am going to do all I can try and throw strikes. I am going to be very offensive minded. But lets say I am only behind by 2 pins. Am I going to throw my usual hook that ideally gets within 4 boards of the gutter. Heck no! Straight ball right down the middle, that being a very defensive strategy. Questions. 1. Is it necessary to be and athlete or even possess I minimal level of athletic ability to compete and a high level in everything you might consider a sport? Keep in mind I am not talking about being fit. I know plenty of people who are fit that don't possess any athletic ability whatsoever. I also know some pretty athletic folks who are not all that fit. 2. This brings me to my next question. There has already been some "spirited" banter on this thread regarding auto racing which makes me somewhat hesitant to bring this up again. Be that as it may I will state my peace. First of all, I am very well aware and appreciate a great deal how skilled one has to be in order to be a world class racer car driver. I am, in fact a fan of most forms of auto racing. I also have no problem calling it a sporting event. What I question is the validity of referring to the act of driving a race car, even at the very highest level, an "athletic event." Now I am not saying all drivers who do this for a living are void of athletic abilities. I am also not suggesting that having a certain level of fitness isn't a good idea. What I am saying is the one does not need to possess even a modest amount of athletic ability to be an exceptional race car driver. Maybe not a good comparison, but do we consider pilots who fly fighter jets as athletes? Not that I've heard. And everything that makes a race car driver good at what they do is magnified many many times over when compared to the physical and mental demands a pilot has to deal with. I just don't buy that all sports require one to be athletic to be good at them. Someone mentioned hand-eye coordination. Of course that is part of many sports. But surgeons also must have excellent hand eye coordination. No one would ever say the act of surgery is an athletic event would they? One last thing. I totally disagree that there is not a transfer of skills from one sport to another. Obviously it's not a given from every sport to every other and the ability to make the transfer varies from person to person. I was well in to my adult years the first time I played soccer. I let it be known to the guys I played with I had zero experience. At the half more than one asked me if I really had never played. Now I wasn't very good at controlling the ball all the time, but because of having played basketball, football, volleyball, I was very good at spacial awareness in relationship to my place on the field and to the other players, both teammates and opponents. Also, because of having been a quarterback, I was pretty decent of the skill of leading the receiver of any pass I would make. Those are just two examples of learning one new sport. There are many others I could make. But alas, I am rambling so I will shut up for now.The transfer you are describing is more mental, not the specific physical skills needed to play the sport. There is some negative transfer that can occur - like when a raquetball player tries to play tennis - totally different wrist action. Is it easier to teach a baseball pitcher how to spike than a shot putter? Carl McGown would say no, and again, that is coming from a scientific POV. Like I said, I don't totally agree. The football coach at our high school found a field goal kicker at soccer practice - he didn't go to baseball practice to find one. There's a whole section in the latest IMPACT manual on how people learn sporting skills. Lots of interesting stuff if anyone is interested. I asked Carl one time if he didn't believe in transfer of learning, why did he stand outside the basketball gym after cuts recruiting for volleyball. He said one reason: can't teach someone to be 6'10".
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Post by azvb on Aug 19, 2011 14:37:01 GMT -5
Mike, I believe it takes great skill to be a race car driver. Question: all these 1000's of fans that show up to watch races, are they aware of the skills you describe, or are they just waiting for a pile up? A mix of both, just like any sporting event. How many folks at a VB match notice when the MB alters a shot enough that it goes out even when she doesn't touch it? I guess the analogy would be how many are there to watch volleyball vs how many are there to see girls in spandex? ?? I have to believe the majority of fans at race car events are there to party and hope for crashes. But, my knowledge of car racing is limited to the driver who won Dancing With The Stars.
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Post by NebraskaVBfan93 on Aug 19, 2011 14:41:30 GMT -5
Interesting you would bring up racquetball vs tennis as I play both. Totally different skill set. And if I am playing both in the same season, I never have a problem going from tennis to rball, but when I go from rball to tennis there is always a brief period of getting used to the heavier weight of the tennis racquet. It's like swinging a tree compared to a rball racquet.
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Post by mikegarrison on Aug 19, 2011 14:51:24 GMT -5
I asked Carl one time if he didn't believe in transfer of learning, why did he stand outside the basketball gym after cuts recruiting for volleyball. He said one reason: can't teach someone to be 6'10". Maybe is that the distinction between "athletic" and not? "Athletic" is referring to physical abilities and/or attributes which can be honed through training but which can not be created in people who don't have them? And of course, there are issues of thresholds. Most people can walk 100 meters down to the mailbox, but only one person in the world can run 100 meters as fast as Usain Bolt. I assume everyone would agree that running a WR 100 meters is athletic. But is walking to the mailbox "athletic"? And if not, where is the threshold?
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Post by azvb on Aug 19, 2011 15:19:06 GMT -5
I asked Carl one time if he didn't believe in transfer of learning, why did he stand outside the basketball gym after cuts recruiting for volleyball. He said one reason: can't teach someone to be 6'10". Maybe is that the distinction between "athletic" and not? "Athletic" is referring to physical abilities and/or attributes which can be honed through training but which can not be created in people who don't have them? And of course, there are issues of thresholds. Most people can walk 100 meters down to the mailbox, but only one person in the world can run 100 meters as fast as Usain Bolt. I assume everyone would agree that running a WR 100 meters is athletic. But is walking to the mailbox "athletic"? And if not, where is the threshold? Are there people who just can't learn a sport no matter the great training they get? I think so. Got a 6'7" kid down the street that I tried to turn into a volleyball player. And he wanted to play. Not an "athletic" bone in his body. Plays a mean saxophone, however. When his younger brother showed up for volleyball, I cringed, assuming he would be the same. He turned out to be pretty good. It wouldn't matter how great a voice teacher you found to teach me how to sing. I just don't have "it". But I wish I did. Guessing there are a few football coaches that would like to try and turn Usain Bolt into a wide receiver. If my mailbox were 100 meters away, I would probably drive to it .
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Post by Phaedrus on Aug 19, 2011 16:08:42 GMT -5
Interesting you would bring up racquetball vs tennis as I play both. Totally different skill set. And if I am playing both in the same season, I never have a problem going from tennis to rball, but when I go from rball to tennis there is always a brief period of getting used to the heavier weight of the tennis racquet. It's like swinging a tree compared to a rball racquet. The transfer from no wrist swings to all wrist swings killed me.
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