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Post by Murina on Aug 30, 2004 2:24:45 GMT -5
The simple answer is that their arms are not fast enough. I'd say their arms are every bit as fast as anyone else... |
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Post by sIsam on Aug 30, 2004 3:20:10 GMT -5
I'd say their arms are every bit as fast as anyone else... I agree! I do not think it is a matter of athleticism or physiology but I think it boils down to training and how things are taught from the start. That's how MBs are taught to hit in the US and that's how they hit and that's how the setter is trained to set them and that is how she sets. I can tell you this for sure: Marinova sets Scott much better than Ah Mow does. I can pretty much say the same thing with Bown and Ferretti last year. |
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Post by sonofbarcelonabob on Aug 30, 2004 9:52:27 GMT -5
Well, I guess we'll agree to disagree.
Internationally, there are different schools of thought on how to approach the game. Based on the medal placings, I'd say speed/skill beats out height/power.
Team USA, both men and women, are drifting somewhere in between those two approaches. They are neither a power team nor a speed team.
Compare this year's team to the 1984 team, they looked like they were moving in slow motion. The 84 team had some big, physical athletes as well (Weishoff, Rose Magers, Flo) but the difference were that these big athletes had quick feet and moved alot faster than the big, physical athletes on the 2004 squad.
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Post by sIsam on Aug 30, 2004 10:40:02 GMT -5
Sure that works for me:)
Add this the fact that the game in general is getting faster and more physical compared to before...
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Post by spikethis on Aug 30, 2004 20:00:45 GMT -5
I agree..that was an unbelieveable match!! Those two teams could not be more different. I am not sure if I like watching the Chinese defense better or Gamova and Sokolova go at it. Either way those two teams looked amazing. I absolutely agree with Gamova/Haneef comparison- Gamova is waaay better. But Gamova, just like all the rest of the Russians, have been playing since they were 8 or 9 years old, perhaps younger. It shows!!! She is just a lot more fluid and a lot smarter. Also, she has that "russian -swipe" type of hit. It doesn't really rotate and it comes at you really hard. You can tell when the ball hits the ground- it doesn't really bounce a whole lot. That is why it is impossible to dig. How many Chinese did you see over and over that were right there yet that ball instead of dropping hit them in their upper arms or, god forbid, chest? Artamonova has that same quality about her hitting.
Sokolova- a whole different player. She has a whip!! It is fast and hard, but somewhat easier to dig (if you are right there). Comparison between Tom and Sokolova is also a bit unfair being that Sokolova is 6'4". By the way, she must be the most athletic and coordinated 6'4" girl I have seen in my life!! She was one of the Russia's best passers!!!
Anyway..going back to Chinese. Eveybody's i wondering how they can run such an offense. Well have you seen one pass that was not perfect?? Ok ..maybe one. But their whole practice is probably ball control. And not just passing- defense, drills, everything. And it is not just the speed- it is the fluidity of their offense. Perfect sets, perfect placement and- more importantly- perfect timing. It takes HOURS and HOURS of practice to be that consistent and the only way to get there is doing it the old fashioned way- get a whole rack of balls and set, pass, dig, whatever until it's perfect.
I could go on and on but another thing to say is that I am quite impressed at how far the USA men and women have gone. Yes, impressed. For a Country that doesn't have a professional volleyball league I think they managed quite far.
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Post by brybry on Aug 30, 2004 21:22:13 GMT -5
I agree..that was an unbelieveable match!! Those two teams could not be more different. I am not sure if I like watching the Chinese defense better or Gamova and Sokolova go at it. Either way those two teams looked amazing. I absolutely agree with Gamova/Haneef comparison- Gamova is waaay better. But Gamova, just like all the rest of the Russians, have been playing since they were 8 or 9 years old, perhaps younger. It shows!!! She is just a lot more fluid and a lot smarter. Also, she has that "russian -swipe" type of hit. It doesn't really rotate and it comes at you really hard. You can tell when the ball hits the ground- it doesn't really bounce a whole lot. That is why it is impossible to dig. How many Chinese did you see over and over that were right there yet that ball instead of dropping hit them in their upper arms or, god forbid, chest? Artamonova has that same quality about her hitting. Sokolova- a whole different player. She has a whip!! It is fast and hard, but somewhat easier to dig (if you are right there). Comparison between Tom and Sokolova is also a bit unfair being that Sokolova is 6'4". By the way, she must be the most athletic and coordinated 6'4" girl I have seen in my life!! She was one of the Russia's best passers!!! Anyway..going back to Chinese. Eveybody's i wondering how they can run such an offense. Well have you seen one pass that was not perfect?? Ok ..maybe one. But their whole practice is probably ball control. And not just passing- defense, drills, everything. And it is not just the speed- it is the fluidity of their offense. Perfect sets, perfect placement and- more importantly- perfect timing. It takes HOURS and HOURS of practice to be that consistent and the only way to get there is doing it the old fashioned way- get a whole rack of balls and set, pass, dig, whatever until it's perfect. I could go on and on but another thing to say is that I am quite impressed at how far the USA men and women have gone. Yes, impressed. For a Country that doesn't have a professional volleyball league I think they managed quite far. Nah, you can't sugarcoat the results. The US women really underperformed. It was a disappointing Olympics for them. They should have at least medalled. |
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Post by sistahsledge on Aug 30, 2004 21:44:14 GMT -5
Sadly, the volleyball team had the weakest results of all the womens' teams, except the 4x100 relay. They didn't get to promote the sport at all--not even an appearance on the Today Show.
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Post by Murina on Sept 1, 2004 0:08:09 GMT -5
SokolovaChachkovaKilic is actually about 6'2". Although you didn't get to see it in Russia's system, by most peoples accounts (including mine) she is the best player in the world.
She's a great hitter on the left, out of the back row, off one foot, and everywhere else you might decide to set her. She is a well above average serve reciever, and she and Kirillova are probably the only two Russians I've ever considered good (excellent actually) defenders. Both Kirillova and SokolovaChachkovaKilic came to Karpol (Uralochka) in their mid-teens - that probably explains their digging! She's also the best left side blocker I've ever seen. When you watch her block from behind the endline her late hand movement is amazing - more like men than any woman I've ever seen.
She is also one of the harder hitters in the world and hits Giba-like angles on a regular basis. Give her a more normal height set - so double and triple blocks aren't waiting for her - and she is leathal!
Karpol doesn't change his system much for anyone (more on this later), and in this case he plugged SokolovaChachkovaKilic into Artamanova's spot in the lineup and with only a handful of weeks to train (in-between tournaments) he didn't adjust the job at all.
When they started talking about SokolovaChachkovaKilic (SCK, I'm tired of typing it all out) rejoining the NT Plotnikova was deep in Karpol's dog house. They were hoping Artamanova's back would be well enough to play (she was putting up 35-50 kills per night in Japan at the time) and SCK would play the right. In 2000 this was the lineup.
When SCK was Karpol's right he expanded the role of the position quite a bit to take advantage of her talent/skill. The job is normally similar to what Plotnikova did in this olympics: pass, block, hit occasionally, and set a (REALLY, REALLY) high ball when the setter digs.
Kilic got set a lot - on the left, the right, quick, backrow, slides... He also set up a play where if the ball was passed from a certain area of the court SCK would just spike the pass (like on the beach).
By the way, in 2000 Russia had on their roster Olga Potachova - a 6'8" serve-recieving, defence playing (well, kinda) outside hitter! She couldn't get on the court though because she played the same position as Artamanova. Also, if you ever get the chance, watch Gamova play pepper. She's great! She could be a good defensive player if Karpol expected his players to dig driven balls.
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Post by spikethis on Sept 1, 2004 1:16:09 GMT -5
I will have to disagree with you on Sokolova's height. I have heard many times on TV that she is 6'4" and I have actually seen her live. She is at least 190 cm- 194 cm as reported from the following link. I think closer to 190-191 cm which makes her at least 6'3" but closer to 6'4". www.volleyball.org/russia/grandprix96.htmlAnyway, I guess it doesn't matter a whole lot. But..talking about tall women, where is Godina? She is another amazing player but I have not seen her for a while. Have I just been out of the loop? I agree with everything you said about Sokolova (i will just use one last name for simplicity). She is the most complete player in the world today. I have to say though that there were some other diggers on Russia's team that were also quite good. Oguienko was amazing and Tiurina (former Batuhtina) has been getting awards for her digging/passing frequently. SHe must have a whole closet full of them. I mean the woman is 33 years old and is Russia's leading libero!! Amazing! Another thing..you are right about Gamova's peppering. Too bad you do not see the Russians warm up before the game on TV. I think they are all flawless. I saw them live multiple times and you sort of stand there in awe- they just have this thing about them. |
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Post by sIsam on Sept 1, 2004 1:43:37 GMT -5
Anyway, I guess it doesn't matter a whole lot. But..talking about tall women, where is Godina? She is another amazing player but I have not seen her for a while. Have I just been out of the loop? She struggled with injuries a couple of years ago and then lost her position in the Russian NT to Gamova. She then had a falling out with Karpol and left his team(s), sat out for half a season and then played for Tenerife in Spain where they won the IECL Championship this past season. I watched most of the final and she looked good and in form.... |
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Post by spikethis on Sept 1, 2004 2:14:35 GMT -5
Oh good. So glad she (Godina) is still playing and doing well.
Another issue I wanted to raise is that Russia has always had amazing outside hitters who play for 2, 3 or 4 olympic games and we get to be quite familiar with them. From Sidorenko and Smirnova to Artamonova, Godina, Sokolova and Gamova. How come they never keep the middles for a longer period of time? Or why aren't they more prominent? I mean, only Ogienko and Chebukina are the great ones that come to my mind. You would think that they had a whole bunch of them. Tebenikina(?) played well in the final but, from what I heard, that might have been the match of her carier. Liza Titsenko (?) is pretty steady but nothing extra.
One of my friends commented that the reason is simple- Kirillova. She used to run a much more colorful offense and could think for herself. I mean who could forget all the Ogienko's fakeouts and slides?? they were unstoppable!!!!
It seemed that the current setter (Shesenikina?) was looking at Karpol WAY to much to tell her what to do and who to set. But she has potential. Anyway...anybody else has an opinion on this one?
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Post by sIsam on Sept 1, 2004 2:24:15 GMT -5
Karpol's system is high sets to outsides. Middle are very rarely involved and are mostly there to block. Kirillova era was an exception to this since she was such an exceptional setter. That's proabaly why we do not remember more than few prominent middles out of the russian system.
Sheshenina is only 19, has been on the helm for only 2-3 tournaments. She has potential to be much better as she plays more with this team. Even as it is she's much better than her pretecessor, Chukanova, and was one of the main reasons why Russia was able to advance this far in this tournament IMO.
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Post by Murina on Sept 1, 2004 3:19:09 GMT -5
Interesting, I've also stood next to Kilic...
As far as the middles go, they have been mostly the same: when Chebukena left Morozova filled that role until Belikova took it over. She held the job for several years until she lost it just a few weeks ago. Tichenko has followed directly on the heels of Ogienko. That is the middle position that does normally get set quite a few balls. For a while Russia/Uralochka was siding out with Tichenko's slide almost exclusively in some rotations. When Safranova is in Artamanova's (Batuhtina's) place that middle gets a lot more balls. One reason Ogienko got set a lot is that for most of her career she was next to Batuhtina and then a young Artamanova in the rotation. Now that Artamanova has become one of the top hitters in the world they would rather set her (or Kilic in this case).
Tiourina is one of the great revievers in the world and is great at digging medium to slow balls (as are most of the Russians), but I don't remember her ever winning a DIGGING award in 20 years. I think I can count the number of driven balls I've seen her dig in 20 years on my fingers and toes! Again, maybe not totally her fault: Karpol only cares about taking care of medium to slow speed balls on defence (including balls off the block) and the Russians, as a group are teriffic at this.
The first time I saw Tchukanova I thought she was AWFUL! I saw her a few months later and thought she had improved quite a bit, but then she stopped... Still, to me the biggest reasons for Russia's improved results are Plotnikova's improvement in reception, and Kilic for Safranova.
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Post by sIsam on Sept 1, 2004 3:53:58 GMT -5
Still, to me the biggest reasons for Russia's improved results are Plotnikova's improvement in reception, and Kilic for Safranova. Especially in the absence of Artamonova, there's no question that having Kilic on roster (for Safranova or whomever) is a HUGE plus for them and a major reason for their good results. I still think that even with Kilic if Chukanova were setting they would not have made it this far in the tournament. Chukanova is not the kind of setter they can use with the reception they have. Even Karpol says that for Chukanova to be successful he needs two of her:) She's also a very good hitter. |
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Post by foreignball on Sept 1, 2004 9:29:12 GMT -5
It seemed that the current setter (Shesenikina?) was looking at Karpol WAY to much to tell her what to do and who to set. But she has potential. Anyway...anybody else has an opinion on this one? In games 1&2 of the final RUS MB’s got more sets than they did for the whole OG, I think, and that was the key – CHN blockers had to stay together with the opposite MB so the RUS heavy artillery had a much easier job. After that in games 3&4 those sets gradually went down to almost nothing and CHN block took over. This change was a Kaprol’s call (at least in this match): It was obvious NBC people were making fun out of his behavior so as all you saw they were following him pretty close with the camera so his words were coming out crystal clear. Any time after his setter set middle he was yelling at her either from the sideline or during TO's: “What did I tell you to do! Why are you not doing that”? May being 2-0 ahead he decided to play safely? |
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