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Post by wilsonthevolleyball2 on May 7, 2017 8:49:06 GMT -5
Out of curiousity, what are the exact reasons and points that she disagrees with on the AVP and what changes did the AVP make this year? She dislikes, chiefly, the four year exclusive clause in the AVP contract. And the "direction" the AVP is taking in regards to growing the sport. Also, while officially the two are unrelated, its fair to reckon that the lawsuit between Kerri and the AVP for $150,000 (so Kerri claims) would be a sticking point. As for the changes, I think that's referring to the side out scoring during match points, and the fact that let serves are not allowed during the side-out rallys.
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Post by timduckforlife on May 7, 2017 10:11:13 GMT -5
Out of curiousity, what are the exact reasons and points that she disagrees with on the AVP and what changes did the AVP make this year? She dislikes, chiefly, the four year exclusive clause in the AVP contract. And the "direction" the AVP is taking in regards to growing the sport. Also, while officially the two are unrelated, its fair to reckon that the lawsuit between Kerri and the AVP for $150,000 (so Kerri claims) would be a sticking point. As for the changes, I think that's referring to the side out scoring during match points, and the fact that let serves are not allowed during the side-out rallys. That's the press release part. But what exactly does the 4yr exclusive mean? What else was wrong with it and why does she feel it wasn't in the best interest of the game?
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2017 10:37:33 GMT -5
Just curious too...If all the players except for a handful think that this was a great contract, then why did all most of the main draw players wait until the deadline had passed & Donald saying that he was cancelling the tour to sign? Why didn't they sign weeks ago instead of last second (including April). Was KW holding a gun to their heads (Figure of speech people-don't turn me in). I'd really like to hear some of the other top players thoughts on the contract situation. But I'm sure we won't!!!!
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Post by wilsonthevolleyball2 on May 7, 2017 11:05:40 GMT -5
She dislikes, chiefly, the four year exclusive clause in the AVP contract. And the "direction" the AVP is taking in regards to growing the sport. Also, while officially the two are unrelated, its fair to reckon that the lawsuit between Kerri and the AVP for $150,000 (so Kerri claims) would be a sticking point. As for the changes, I think that's referring to the side out scoring during match points, and the fact that let serves are not allowed during the side-out rallys. That's the press release part. But what exactly does the 4yr exclusive mean? What else was wrong with it and why does she feel it wasn't in the best interest of the game? It means that unless they get permission from the AVP, players aren't allowed to play in other domestic leagues (ie the NVL). I think it also means they need permission to play in FIVB events. There's also things like no benefits whilst playing on AVP (players are pretty much contractors, so no health benefits or anything of the like). So in other words, for four years players are contracted to the AVP, and only the the AVP. Players can't just go off and decide to play somewhere else whenever they feel like it. Kerri doesn't like it because she feels it prevents players from earning a livable income. She also doesn't like the amount that prize money will increase from year to year, claims its far too low. As for growing the game itself, Kerri claims that the AVP hasn't done enough in that regards. Bottom line, Kerri doesn't like the choices the Donald Sun has made in running the AVP, so pretty much left. Some agree with her choice, others don't.
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Post by haze on May 7, 2017 11:49:57 GMT -5
The problem with 4 year agreement is the players are basically all in on the AVP. If it continues to struggle financially and can't grow in earnings and prize money it's going to stagnant the growth and development of our players.
People have all sorts of opinions on Donald Sun and that's fine. The guy is terrible for the growth of the game on US soil. He doesn't care about the midlevel and upcoming players that aren't mainstays that don't attract his tour.
The AVP is no longer king. The FIVB is. Aparently, the AVP isn't even attractive enough to lure all the top players right now. There are players that didn't sign the agreement that are good enough to be main draw players. That's a problem. Grow the sport.
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Post by timduckforlife on May 7, 2017 13:59:19 GMT -5
The problem with 4 year agreement is the players are basically all in on the AVP. If it continues to struggle financially and can't grow in earnings and prize money it's going to stagnant the growth and development of our players. People have all sorts of opinions on Donald Sun and that's fine. The guy is terrible for the growth of the game on US soil. He doesn't care about the midlevel and upcoming players that aren't mainstays that don't attract his tour. The AVP is no longer king. The FIVB is. Aparently, the AVP isn't even attractive enough to lure all the top players right now. There are players that didn't sign the agreement that are good enough to be main draw players. That's a problem. Grow the sport. I can't blame anyone for not signing an exclusive with the AVP. The sport in the US isn't strong enough to support that. Players need freedom to go where the money is. And this could definitely be potential conflicts of interest from a more lucrative tournament elsewhere or possibly an FIVB qualifier. Further, since they have to get permission to just play in a different tournament, I could see conflict of interests in getting permission if they wanted them to do an appearance somewhere vs playing.
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Post by haze on May 7, 2017 14:14:49 GMT -5
I can't blame them either. I blame the guy handcuffing these players and the sport in general.
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Post by guest2 on May 7, 2017 15:37:55 GMT -5
I can't blame them either. I blame the guy handcuffing these players and the sport in general. Handcuffing the players and the sport? By refusing to allow the players he subsidizes the opportunity to play for 15k in six events? The best thing Donald said in this whole controversy was when he said that too many midlevel players expected to be able to make a living playing BVB despite what the sport actually brings in. I have been critical of the slow and non-expansion of the AVP in the past, but Sun is fighting against decades of history. You think potential sponsors don't remember the %*$# show the players and previous execs made of the tour half a dozen times in the past? Why do you think natural sponsors like Coppertone etc. stay away? For every Sinjin Smith or Mike Dodd, who would do a dozen appearances the week of an event, there have been 30 Brian Lewises, Kerri Walshes, or any of the other players whose attitude was "I just need to show up and play and that entitles me to money." What handicaps the game now, other than the fact that the players aren't people you would naturally associate with the beach lifestyle, is the fact that the players are not promoters. On the Wednesday before the event in places like Austin or Chicago, there should be ten players doing clinics, appearances, interviews, local tv guest shots etc. publicizing the event. There should be "Win a date with a Crabb brother" contests, and Sheila Shaw should be waving various flags at local racing events. Lane and KVZ should be teaming up to play exhibitions against local Juniors. Maybe some of that stuff is happening, but if it is I'v never heard of it.
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Post by greenpier on May 7, 2017 15:48:41 GMT -5
The best thing Donald said in this whole controversy was when he said that too many midlevel players expected to be able to make a living playing BVB despite what the sport actually brings in.
For every Sinjin Smith or Mike Dodd, who would do a dozen appearances the week of an event, there have been 30 Brian Lewises, Kerri Walshes, or any of the other players whose attitude was "I just need to show up and play and that entitles me to money." Kerri blows so much smoke. Most players know they will never make enough money off this sport to live like baseball, basketball, tennis players.............who don't need side jobs to survive. Beach volleyball is a niche sport.
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Post by greenpier on May 7, 2017 15:49:30 GMT -5
Kerri doesn't like it because she feels it prevents players from earning a livable income. She also doesn't like the amount that prize money will increase from year to year, claims its far too low. As for growing the game itself, Kerri claims that the AVP hasn't done enough in that regards. Bottom line, Kerri doesn't like the choices the Donald Sun has made in running the AVP, so pretty much left. Some agree with her choice, others don't. Bottom line...............Kerri does not like Mr. Sun and how he runs things. Her caring about other players is hard to believe................
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Post by greenpier on May 7, 2017 15:50:06 GMT -5
Their breakup was in no way amicable, and it would take several tons of fence mending to get them back together. Kerri saying sorry.........................
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Post by haze on May 7, 2017 18:19:26 GMT -5
I can't blame them either. I blame the guy handcuffing these players and the sport in general. Handcuffing the players and the sport? By refusing to allow the players he subsidizes the opportunity to play for 15k in six events? The best thing Donald said in this whole controversy was when he said that too many midlevel players expected to be able to make a living playing BVB despite what the sport actually brings in. I have been critical of the slow and non-expansion of the AVP in the past, but Sun is fighting against decades of history. You think potential sponsors don't remember the %*$# show the players and previous execs made of the tour half a dozen times in the past? Why do you think natural sponsors like Coppertone etc. stay away?9 For every Sinjin Smith or Mike Dodd, who would do a dozen appearances the week of an event, there have been 30 Brian Lewises, Kerri Walshes, or any of the other players whose attitude was "I just need to show up and play and that entitles me to money." What handicaps the game now, other than the fact that the players aren't people you would naturally associate with the beach lifestyle, is the fact that the players are not promoters. On the Wednesday before the event in places like Austin or Chicago, there should be ten players doing clinics, appearances, interviews, local tv guest shots etc. publicizing the event. There should be "Win a date with a Crabb brother" contests, and Sheila Shaw should be waving various flags at local racing events. Lane and KVZ should be teaming up to play exhibitions against local Juniors. Maybe some of that stuff is happening, but if it is I'v never heard of it. How many players does he provide a living for? Maybe 4? Nothing to see here. Sun isn't in any position to monopolize the sport. I don't care how much of the money it loses is his. Beach Volleyball isn't better because of him. It's stagnant.
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Post by guest2 on May 7, 2017 19:00:52 GMT -5
Handcuffing the players and the sport? By refusing to allow the players he subsidizes the opportunity to play for 15k in six events? The best thing Donald said in this whole controversy was when he said that too many midlevel players expected to be able to make a living playing BVB despite what the sport actually brings in. I have been critical of the slow and non-expansion of the AVP in the past, but Sun is fighting against decades of history. You think potential sponsors don't remember the %*$# show the players and previous execs made of the tour half a dozen times in the past? Why do you think natural sponsors like Coppertone etc. stay away?9 For every Sinjin Smith or Mike Dodd, who would do a dozen appearances the week of an event, there have been 30 Brian Lewises, Kerri Walshes, or any of the other players whose attitude was "I just need to show up and play and that entitles me to money." What handicaps the game now, other than the fact that the players aren't people you would naturally associate with the beach lifestyle, is the fact that the players are not promoters. On the Wednesday before the event in places like Austin or Chicago, there should be ten players doing clinics, appearances, interviews, local tv guest shots etc. publicizing the event. There should be "Win a date with a Crabb brother" contests, and Sheila Shaw should be waving various flags at local racing events. Lane and KVZ should be teaming up to play exhibitions against local Juniors. Maybe some of that stuff is happening, but if it is I'v never heard of it. How many players does he provide a living for? Maybe 4? Nothing to see here. Sun isn't in any position to monopolize the sport. I don't care how much of the money it loses is his. Beach Volleyball isn't better because of him. It's stagnant. It exists because of him. There was nothing, then he came and put up his money and there was something. You could certainly argue - correctly so - that BVB has stagnated the last couple years, but to say it isnt better off because of him is a hard sell. I'm no necessarily sold on the idea that Sun is the guy to make BVB a mainstream sport again, but his recent actions have been positive indicators, not negative ones. Your question about providing a living to players is something thats hard to answer without seeing any contracts they have signed. Im sure Kerri's 150 a year was an outlier, but Phil, April, Casey etc. probably had similar deals (in form if not amount) Also lets not forget that the AVP's expansion has been restricted in large part because players have been unavailable due to FIVB commitments. I am sure the AVP would have expanded faster had the top players said, "we'll play any AVP dates you have, and only then FIVB." I think your post shows where we fundamentally disagree. You think, like many players, that playing gives them the right to a living, whereas I see them as obligated to help build the tour they expect to provide them a living. I also don't understand when you say, "he isn't in any position to monopolize the sport." He has done it so he was clearly in a position to do so.
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Post by haze on May 7, 2017 19:04:54 GMT -5
How many players does he provide a living for? Maybe 4? Nothing to see here. Sun isn't in any position to monopolize the sport. I don't care how much of the money it loses is his. Beach Volleyball isn't better because of him. It's stagnant. It exists because of him. There was nothing, then he came and put up his money and there was something. You could certainly argue - correctly so - that BVB has stagnated the last couple years, but to say it isnt better off because of him is a hard sell. I'm no necessarily sold on the idea that Sun is the guy to make BVB a mainstream sport again, but his recent actions have been positive indicators, not negative ones. Your question about providing a living to players is something thats hard to answer without seeing any contracts they have signed. Im sure Kerri's 150 a year was an outlier, but Phil, April, Casey etc. probably had similar deals (in form if not amount) Also lets not forget that the AVP's expansion has been restricted in large part because players have been unavailable due to FIVB commitments. I am sure the AVP would have expanded faster had the top players said, "we'll play any AVP dates you have, and only then FIVB." I think your post shows where we fundamentally disagree. You think, like many players, that playing gives them the right to a living, whereas I see them as obligated to help build the tour they expect to provide them a living. I also don't understand when you say, "he isn't in any position to monopolize the sport." He has done it so he was clearly in a position to do so. He could be good for the sport and help grow.the sport isn't in a situation where someone could come in and tell people where they can and can't play. That's the point. If it's established, it's a non issue. It's currently struggling, and telling players where they can and can't play doesn't help. It's that simple.
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Post by ajm on May 7, 2017 19:18:20 GMT -5
That's the press release part. But what exactly does the 4yr exclusive mean? What else was wrong with it and why does she feel it wasn't in the best interest of the game? It means that unless they get permission from the AVP, players aren't allowed to play in other domestic leagues (ie the NVL). I think it also means they need permission to play in FIVB events. There's also things like no benefits whilst playing on AVP (players are pretty much contractors, so no health benefits or anything of the like). So in other words, for four years players are contracted to the AVP, and only the the AVP. Players can't just go off and decide to play somewhere else whenever they feel like it. Kerri doesn't like it because she feels it prevents players from earning a livable income. She also doesn't like the amount that prize money will increase from year to year, claims its far too low. As for growing the game itself, Kerri claims that the AVP hasn't done enough in that regards. Bottom line, Kerri doesn't like the choices the Donald Sun has made in running the AVP, so pretty much left. Some agree with her choice, others don't. It's unfortunate that the AVP couldn't come up with some agreement where its players could play NVL events that don't conflict with AVP events (and there are no conflicting dates this year). I don't see how it benefits the sport or the AVP to restrict the exposure of the top players. Maybe they could even co-brand the four NVL events or some other cross-promotion, although maybe those bridges were long ago burned. It's hard to read Kerri's statement and not hear Leonard Armato's voice. I don't think we've seen the last of him in this sport. It feels like he is trying to use the NVL to rebuild things with the next generation of players. It will be interesting to see if he gets anywhere with it.
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