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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 7, 2017 16:00:46 GMT -5
Let's say some Brazilian team hires Zhu away from Turkey and brings her to Brazil. She displaces someone on the roster, who maybe moves to a different team and displaces someone on that roster, etc. But eventually it means one player loses out and doesn't get a spot because Zhu got that spot.
Is that fair?
Well, if the rules allow Zhu to be hired and to play, then are we going to say it is unfair that she displaces some other player? Just because she's taller, hits harder, scores points better, etc. should she be allowed to keep some other woman from getting a spot on a team? I am assuming the answer is yes for everyone on the board. This is not daycare; this is professional sports.
So ... Tifanny Abreu. The rules say she qualifies to play in women's volleyball. So given that, if it's fair for Zhu to displace some other player who doesn't contribute as much to the team winning, then it's fair for Tifanny too. And if you don't think it's fair, then what you are saying is that you don't think the qualification rule is correct.
Because it's idiotic to argue that a trans player is OK, but only if she's not good enough to actually make the roster. The argument that she shouldn't be allowed because she displaces some ciswoman fails if it's just about whether she's good or not. Zhu would also displace some ciswoman, but I assume you would allow her to play despite that.
So the real argument is over the definition of who qualifies to play "women's sports". And that's been argued a long time. There is a very sordid history associated with testing for womanness in sports. The current standard is the current standard precisely because, after this long history, it was felt to be better than the alternatives. So I ask people on this forum: if you don't like the current rule about who qualifies to play women's sports, what would you replace it with? How would you enforce your new rule? How would you test to see if competitors met it? Please answer those questions.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Dec 7, 2017 16:49:24 GMT -5
Because it's idiotic to argue that a trans player is OK, but only if she's not good enough to actually make the roster. The argument that she shouldn't be allowed because she displaces some ciswoman fails if it's just about whether she's good or not. Zhu would also displace some ciswoman, but I assume you would allow her to play despite that. A trans player would be okay in a women's division if the transition truly limited her advantage from being born male. It's pretty clear that Tiffany is gaining an advantage because we know that she was, for the international level, a well below average player throughout her athletic prime. After changing gender, in her thirties, she moved up to a much, much higher level of play and DOMINATED (6+ PPS!!!!) a women's competition. It's completely implausible to argue that she isn't gaining an advantage from her sex, which is exactly what should determine eligibility in a sex-segregated competition in the first place. Yes, some female athletes are taller and are better. They are exceptional and they are outliers, and women's sports exists in order to give opportunities to exceptional female athletes who would otherwise be outcompeted by non-exceptional male athletes. And that delineation is at issue here. That the rules are what they are (and they are by no means settled) does not mean that the rules are what they should be. I don't have to know exactly what the rules should be (and under exactly which circumstances a genetically/chromosomally male player's advantages would be mitigated) to understand that the rules are doing a disservice to women's sports, and the rules should be conservatively drafted to preserve competitive integrity and avoid situations like this.
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Post by Fight On! on Dec 7, 2017 16:57:28 GMT -5
If you fail to see why I made mention of race in this instance, your reading comprehensive and critical thinking skills are severely limited. You can act like you used the word eunuch in a value-free manner, but you did not. You used it to insult the player whose experience has inspired this thread. Furthermore, no one with any in-depth knowledge of race considers it to be biological. While there are phenotypic expression of an individual's genotype, race itself is a notion of characterological traits associated with skin color, facial features, hair texture and other factors. I notice you once again failed to address the biology of the eunuch pretending to be a woman. Does the eunuch have the male xy chromosomes, or the female xx chromosomes? Please use your vaunted critical thinking skills to frame another evasive response. Woman is a term used to describe gender. Therefore your questions about chromosomes are irrelevant. Biological sex and gender are not the same thing. There are many more chromosomal combinations that just XX and XY in the world. Tiffany is not a eunuch pretending to be a woman, as you seem to think. She lives her life everyday as a woman, just as you mother, sister, daughter, and wife do.
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 7, 2017 17:14:18 GMT -5
That the rules are what they are (and they are by no means settled) does not mean that the rules are what they should be. I don't have to know exactly what the rules should be (and under exactly which circumstances a genetically/chromosomally male player's advantages would be mitigated) to understand that the rules are doing a disservice to women's sports, and the rules should be conservatively drafted to preserve competitive integrity and avoid situations like this. Fair enough except the point is we do have rules. They were agreed to. She does meet the rules. Just as the NCAA rules about substitutions change which players have an advantage under the rules, the international rules about who qualifies to play women's sports are always going to affect which players have an advantage under the rules. It's not enough to say that there are edge cases and so the rules must be flawed. There will always be edge cases under any set of rules. It's clear you are unhappy with the effects of the current rules, but if you don't have anything better to propose then I guess you're just going to have to learn to live with being unhappy.
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Post by volleyball303 on Dec 7, 2017 17:39:31 GMT -5
That the rules are what they are (and they are by no means settled) does not mean that the rules are what they should be. I don't have to know exactly what the rules should be (and under exactly which circumstances a genetically/chromosomally male player's advantages would be mitigated) to understand that the rules are doing a disservice to women's sports, and the rules should be conservatively drafted to preserve competitive integrity and avoid situations like this. Fair enough except the point is we do have rules. They were agreed to. She does meet the rules. Just as the NCAA rules about substitutions change which players have an advantage under the rules, the international rules about who qualifies to play women's sports are always going to affect which players have an advantage under the rules. It's not enough to say that there are edge cases and so the rules must be flawed. There will always be edge cases under any set of rules. It's clear you are unhappy with the effects of the current rules, but if you don't have anything better to propose then I guess you're just going to have to learn to live with being unhappy. What does the Olympics do? If Tiffany is good enough would the Olympics allow her to play for Brazil’s team in 2020?
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Post by Fight On! on Dec 7, 2017 17:42:18 GMT -5
Because it's idiotic to argue that a trans player is OK, but only if she's not good enough to actually make the roster. The argument that she shouldn't be allowed because she displaces some ciswoman fails if it's just about whether she's good or not. Zhu would also displace some ciswoman, but I assume you would allow her to play despite that. A trans player would be okay in a women's division if the transition truly limited her advantage from being born male. It's pretty clear that Tiffany is gaining an advantage because we know that she was, for the international level, a well below average player throughout her athletic prime. After changing gender, in her thirties, she moved up to a much, much higher level of play and DOMINATED (6+ PPS!!!!) a women's competition. It's completely implausible to argue that she isn't gaining an advantage from her sex, which is exactly what should determine eligibility in a sex-segregated competition in the first place. What does the highlighted sentence even mean or have to do with anything? Are you saying she is gaining an advantage over her own relative position when she played in the men's division? I cannot understand the relevance. I watched some the Serie A2 videos last night and the level is not high at all. That she "dominated" that level does not say much. The jury is out what she will do against high level women's competition.
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Post by Dash22 on Dec 7, 2017 17:46:21 GMT -5
He can call himself a woman but it will NEVER be! Did you just call a human being an “it”? You’re unbelievably stupid!
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Post by Vacation on Dec 7, 2017 18:27:15 GMT -5
Did you just call a human being an “it”? You’re unbelievably stupid! This can be found on page 3, subsection IV of the liberal playbook for the curious-minded among us.
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Post by Dash22 on Dec 7, 2017 18:47:33 GMT -5
You’re unbelievably stupid! This can be found on page 3, subsection IV of the liberal playbook for the curious-minded among us. Shongoal is dangerous
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Post by durtpile on Dec 7, 2017 19:30:10 GMT -5
I notice you once again failed to address the biology of the eunuch pretending to be a woman. Does the eunuch have the male xy chromosomes, or the female xx chromosomes? Please use your vaunted critical thinking skills to frame another evasive response. Woman is a term used to describe gender. Therefore your questions about chromosomes are irrelevant. Biological sex and gender are not the same thing. There are many more chromosomal combinations that just XX and XY in the world. Tiffany is not a eunuch pretending to be a woman, as you seem to think. She lives her life everyday as a woman, just as you mother, sister, daughter, and wife do. Woman is used to describe the adult female human being. Female denotes the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes, hence, a human with xx chromosomes. Nice fail with the newspeak routine. I suggest a basic biology class.
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 7, 2017 19:46:37 GMT -5
So my mom, who has had a hysterectomy, is no longer a woman because she can't bear offspring or produce eggs?
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Post by Hawk Attack on Dec 7, 2017 20:24:59 GMT -5
Did you just call a human being an “it”? You’re unbelievably stupid! Lol overreact much?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 21:09:55 GMT -5
Some one the women in Italy did complain about playing against Tiffany, they had never played against a woman that was that strong before, they even said they truly felt they were playing against a man and not a woman.
I`m totally ok with Tiffany playing in the women`s league, she`s a women and that`s it, in the women`s league is where she belongs.
In Brazil she will up against some one the best players in the World and best coaches some are even Olympic Champions, they play and have always played against the best tallest strongest women in volleyball, BUT if after Tiffany`s debut these Brazilian Players do start complaining and saying they feel Tiffany`s game does not seams right as "she`s way too stronger" considering she`s a woman. Then for sure I will take their word ( as unfortunately Tiffany`s male genes are still part of her) over the science.
I can`t wait to see her playing.
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Post by Fight On! on Dec 7, 2017 21:15:34 GMT -5
Woman is a term used to describe gender. Therefore your questions about chromosomes are irrelevant. Biological sex and gender are not the same thing. There are many more chromosomal combinations that just XX and XY in the world. Tiffany is not a eunuch pretending to be a woman, as you seem to think. She lives her life everyday as a woman, just as you mother, sister, daughter, and wife do. Woman is used to describe the adult female human being. Female denotes the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes, hence, a human with xx chromosomes. Nice fail with the newspeak routine. I suggest a basic biology class. I have a PhD, and taught at a college level for years. You can try to belittle my intelligence, but I have no doubt you cannot have more education than me. Plus, I can see very easily that you have plagiarized your post as googling female results in "an adult human female" and female gives "of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes" as the very first definition that pops up. So, you clearly cannot even make your own arguments without going to google. I wonder if you copied and pasted your way through all of your schooling.
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Post by Fight On! on Dec 7, 2017 21:20:13 GMT -5
Some one the women in Italy did complain about playing against Tiffany, they had never played against a woman that was that strong before, they even said they truly felt they were playing against a man and not a woman. I`m totally ok with Tiffany playing in the women`s league, she`s a women and that`s it, in the women`s league is where she belongs. In Brazil she will up against some one the best players in the World and best coaches some are even Olympic Champions, they play and have always played against the best tallest strongest women in volleyball, BUT if after Tiffany`s debut these Brazilian Players do start complaining and saying they feel Tiffany`s game does not seams right as "she`s way too stronger" considering she`s a woman. Then for sure I will take their word ( as unfortunately Tiffany`s male genes are still part of her) over the science. I can`t wait to see her playing. Yeah, the Serie 2 that she was playing in looked weak - like NCAA level. They couldn't even do hitting lines very impressively in the videos I watched. So I am not willing to be swayed by complaining from weak players. Naya Crittenden is in that league, for example. She could not make HM All American even, from what I remember.
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