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Post by gb77 on Dec 7, 2017 21:36:25 GMT -5
dear doubletrojan - please come off your high horse with your "education" and "intelligence" and address the philisophical issue of whether the rules which allow the player to play are "right" or "wrong" or neither & "up to those who set the rules" & everyone else involved can choose to play or not or change the rules to what they prefer. more power to the player to enjoy the opportunity they have until rules or the player's ability changes.
i agree with c4ndlelight philisophically that "the rules should be conservatively drafted to preserve competitive integrity and avoid situations like this." science & "facts" "definitions" etc. are indeed abused & turned into doublespeak by too many to argue what is actually a philisophical view or to put down someone they don't like.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Dec 7, 2017 21:40:55 GMT -5
Some one the women in Italy did complain about playing against Tiffany, they had never played against a woman that was that strong before, they even said they truly felt they were playing against a man and not a woman. I`m totally ok with Tiffany playing in the women`s league, she`s a women and that`s it, in the women`s league is where she belongs. In Brazil she will up against some one the best players in the World and best coaches some are even Olympic Champions, they play and have always played against the best tallest strongest women in volleyball, BUT if after Tiffany`s debut these Brazilian Players do start complaining and saying they feel Tiffany`s game does not seams right as "she`s way too stronger" considering she`s a woman. Then for sure I will take their word ( as unfortunately Tiffany`s male genes are still part of her) over the science. I can`t wait to see her playing. Yeah, the Serie 2 that she was playing in looked weak - like NCAA level. They couldn't even do hitting lines very impressively in the videos I watched. So I am not willing to be swayed by complaining from weak players. Naya Crittenden is in that league, for example. She could not make HM All American even, from what I remember. Well the woman who started for Team USA for the majority of the summer in that same position is playing in A2.. and not doing that great. And in any case, my point is that it's miles and miles above the equivalent level this player was playing at prior to the transition.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 21:49:43 GMT -5
Some one the women in Italy did complain about playing against Tiffany, they had never played against a woman that was that strong before, they even said they truly felt they were playing against a man and not a woman. I`m totally ok with Tiffany playing in the women`s league, she`s a women and that`s it, in the women`s league is where she belongs. In Brazil she will up against some one the best players in the World and best coaches some are even Olympic Champions, they play and have always played against the best tallest strongest women in volleyball, BUT if after Tiffany`s debut these Brazilian Players do start complaining and saying they feel Tiffany`s game does not seams right as "she`s way too stronger" considering she`s a woman. Then for sure I will take their word ( as unfortunately Tiffany`s male genes are still part of her) over the science. I can`t wait to see her playing. Yeah, the Serie 2 that she was playing in looked weak - like NCAA level. They couldn't even do hitting lines very impressively in the videos I watched. So I am not willing to be swayed by complaining from weak players. Naya Crittenden is in that league, for example. She could not make HM All American even, from what I remember. Serie 2 is not at the same level as Serie 1, Brazil, Turkey etc , but I don`t think Serie 2 is that weak, for example Liz McMahon is playing there this season and she`s been terrible, despite being 1.99cm and a member of the US NT she`s hitting around 30%. And Anne Drews is playing for Legnano, a team that was just promoted to the Main Division and their starting OPP (Camila Mimgard, 20 year old) played with them in Serie 2 and was the best score in the lague this past season, now in Serie 1 she`s not the best score but she`s TOP 10, and Anne Drews is benching for her. And Anne and McMahon are supposed to be TOP 5 Best American OPP at the moment ( behind Hooker, Fawcett and Murphy). Serie 2 does not have a lot of players with NT experience. But now in Brazil will be a different story when it comes down to evaluating Tiffany`s performance.
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Post by Fight On! on Dec 7, 2017 21:52:51 GMT -5
Yeah, the Serie 2 that she was playing in looked weak - like NCAA level. They couldn't even do hitting lines very impressively in the videos I watched. So I am not willing to be swayed by complaining from weak players. Naya Crittenden is in that league, for example. She could not make HM All American even, from what I remember. Well the woman who started for Team USA for the majority of the summer in that same position is playing in A2.. and not doing that great. And in any case, my point is that it's miles and miles above the equivalent level this player was playing at prior to the transition. It makes no sense to me why you keep going back to that same statement. Can you clearly articulate why is matters what her current level is relative to her level as a man? Do you think there is going to be a rush on HRT and sex reassignment surgery and a huge bunch of 30-something men are going to go through what Tiffany did just to play against women?
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Post by dd2000 on Dec 8, 2017 7:38:17 GMT -5
Why define the traits further, when all you have to do is look at athletes through every sport. Because, as I said, that simply resolves to some mystical trait of "maleness". If you simplify the spectrum of traits that affect sports performance down into a binary distinction of "male" and "female", then of course it makes your argument trivial. At that point you are just left with "is she male or female?" Well, by rule she's now female, so by your own oversimplification she's legit to play. MY over simplification? You're too funny, LOL. Its hard enough to discuss "maleness" (or femaleness) when one has always been a male or a female, much less in a person who has transitioned. Its over simplification to simply look at single traits or single hormone levels and then try to draw firm conclusions one way or the other. I stated earlier that I think this deserves more study. Doubletrojan even posted as much in one of his copy and pastes a few pages back.
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Post by alhorford90 on Dec 8, 2017 9:12:41 GMT -5
TRANSlivesmatter and y'all will continue to be pressed about how others live their lives.
I'm happy for her. She's living her life playing ball and some of y'all are misgendering her on an anon board in another country most likely. #pressed
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Post by Fight On! on Dec 8, 2017 9:57:02 GMT -5
dear doubletrojan - please come off your high horse with your "education" and "intelligence" and address the philisophical issue of whether the rules which allow the player to play are "right" or "wrong" or neither & "up to those who set the rules" & everyone else involved can choose to play or not or change the rules to what they prefer. more power to the player to enjoy the opportunity they have until rules or the player's ability changes. i agree with c4ndlelight philisophically that "the rules should be conservatively drafted to preserve competitive integrity and avoid situations like this." science & "facts" "definitions" etc. are indeed abused & turned into doublespeak by too many to argue what is actually a philisophical view or to put down someone they don't like. My posts are directly related too attacks on me and my thoughts by another poster. The rules are drafted appropriately in my view, based on the evidence I know of about the performance of trans athletes relative to cisgender athletes.
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Post by Seahawks 1972 on Dec 8, 2017 21:39:07 GMT -5
Can you just imagine the mental stress that Tiffany will endure every single moment they show her past as a boy and adult male prior to transitioning and getting accepted to play in the sport she loves as the gender she has been yearning to be?
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Post by kylewise1983 on Dec 8, 2017 22:13:56 GMT -5
My soap box: The notion a that any individual would just switch genders to gain an advantage in a sport, shows a complete lack of understanding of the tremendous hardships the majority of transgender individuals endure upon their transition.
My question: since many of you are opposed to Tiffany playing in women’s divisions because she was male sex at birth, despite all the medical changes she has made to help her transitions, are you then in favor of a female at birth playing in the women’s leagues even after a ftm transition? Or is there just no space for any transperson in women’s volleyball?
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Post by vballgrl on Dec 8, 2017 22:42:54 GMT -5
Wonder if a woman who changes to a man would get picked up by a pro men's team? (Other than for publicity) If I'm being honest, I think not. Why? Because her taking hormones doesn't make her the physical equivalent of a man. She won't suddenly jump as high and hit as hard.
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Post by Fight On! on Dec 8, 2017 22:49:56 GMT -5
Wonder if a woman who changes to a man would get picked up by a pro men's team? (Other than for publicity) If I'm being honest, I think not. Why? Because her taking hormones doesn't make her the physical equivalent of a man. She won't suddenly jump as high and hit as hard. Libero?
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Post by vballgrl on Dec 8, 2017 22:55:36 GMT -5
Wonder if a woman who changes to a man would get picked up by a pro men's team? (Other than for publicity) If I'm being honest, I think not. Why? Because her taking hormones doesn't make her the physical equivalent of a man. She won't suddenly jump as high and hit as hard. Libero? Unlikely there either. I grew up playing sports with guys. Was tall and strong for my age. Won races, throwing contests, etc...until I hit 14 and then allllll the sudden, boys were always beating me. By 17 it wasn't even close. Boys are faster and stronger. Look at the best high jump, long jump, dead lift, 100 yd dash, vertical jump, fast pitch speed, etc of all time, both genders. Has a woman's best beaten a man's record in any of them? Genuinely curious.
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Post by Fight On! on Dec 8, 2017 22:59:17 GMT -5
Unlikely there either. I grew up playing sports with guys. Was tall and strong for my age. Won races, throwing contests, etc...until I hit 14 and then allllll the sudden, boys were always beating me. By 17 it wasn't even close. Boys are faster and stronger. Look at the best high jump, long jump, dead lift, 100 yd dash, vertical jump, fast pitch speed, etc of all time, both genders. Has a woman's best beaten a man's record in any of them? Genuinely curious. I am just saying that is the most likely spot. Not sure many of the athletic skills you mentioned relate much though. Reaction time, hand eye coordination, flexibility seem to matter more.
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Post by Murina on Dec 9, 2017 0:10:32 GMT -5
Yeah, the Serie 2 that she was playing in looked weak - like NCAA level. They couldn't even do hitting lines very impressively in the videos I watched. So I am not willing to be swayed by complaining from weak players. Naya Crittenden is in that league, for example. She could not make HM All American even, from what I remember. From my years old experience mid level A2 teams would generally beat NCAA champions more often than not. i agree with c4ndlelight philisophically that "the rules should be conservatively drafted to preserve competitive integrity and avoid situations like this." science & "facts" "definitions" etc. are indeed abused & turned into doublespeak by too many to argue what is actually a philisophical view or to put down someone they don't like. Generally in doping cases and, at least in past sex/hormone tests, they make the tests pretty hard to fail. In doping, like one in 100,000 elite atheltes might test positive even though they never took whatever they are testing for. The reason is that some people are just naturally high in x and they don't want to wrongly rule people out on an arbitrary number. So if you design your sex test "conservatively" who else are you ruling out? Erica Coimbra has been mentioned in this thread. She might be ruled out. Might a person who we all believe is female be excluded because she tested above a certain arbitrary threshold? On the elite end of the spectrum a significant number of athletes we fans see as completely female probably have more male sex characteristics than we realize.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 13:51:03 GMT -5
Tiffany made her debut. Source: voleibol.pe, youtube.com/ESPORTE E NOTICIA 2; Photo: Neide Carlos/Vôlei Bauru/folha.uol.com.br 294 0 An interesting news came from Brazil regarding Tifanny Abreu, the first-ever player who has competed in both Men’s and Women’s professional volleyball, that coincided with her debut in Superliga! A few days ago, a transgender volleyball player Tifanny has officially joined Vôlei Bauru for the 2017/18 season. She made her debut in Superliga, yesterday, by making 15 points (the second best scorer on her team) against São Cristóvão Saúde/São Caetano (2-3). Now, she has a chance to become the first-ever transgender player competing with the Brazilian Women’s National Team! As Bruno Voloch published in his blog on „Estadão Esportes“, and voleibol.pe transferred, Brazil’s head coach José Roberto Guimarães ’Zé Roberto’ did not rule out the possibility of engaging Tifanny in the roster for the 2018 FIVB World Championship in Japan. Of course, in case she presents herself in a good light in Superliga this season... www.worldofvolley.com/News/Latest_news/Brazil/92772/bra-w-tifanny-makes-excellent-debut-for-bauru-ze-roberto-says-he-will-watch-her-closely-video.html
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