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Post by Fight On! on Jan 1, 2018 22:50:28 GMT -5
What new rules do I propose? For starters, anyone who types in bold large font letters should have to watch 40 consecutive hours of Duran Duran videos. I'll get back to you on the other stuff. Propose if they have XX chromosomes they can only compete against women. If they have XY chromosomes they can only compete against men. Tiffany has XY therefore she would have to compete against men if she wanted to compete. Simple science and logic. No matter how many surgeries she has she will alway have XY chromosomes. The committee would have to come up with a rule for people with Swyer syndrome which I think is perfectly fine. Has there ever been a high level athlete with Swyer syndrome? Chromosome testing last used in the Olympics over 20 years ago ... Here is a brief history (borrowed from Wikipedia) —- Chromosome testing was introduced by the International Olympic Committee during the 1968 Summer Olympics.[10] This tested for the presence of the SRY gene, which is found on the Y-chromosome, and was designed to identify males potentially disguised as females. This method of testing was later abolished, as it was shown to be inconclusive in identifying maleness.[11] The International Association of Athletics Federations ceased sex screening for all athletes in 1992,[12] but retained the option of assessing the sex of a participant should suspicions arise. A resolution was passed at the 1996 International Olympic Committee (IOC) World Conference on Women and Health "to discontinue the current process of gender verification during the Olympic Games". The International Olympic Committee's board voted to discontinue the practice in June 1999.[13] Chromosome testing was last performed at the Atlanta Olympic Games in 1996. —- So, your proposal doesn’t seem so simple and logical to me considering it was used and abandoned so long ago. |
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Post by mikegarrison on Jan 1, 2018 23:27:07 GMT -5
Propose if they have XX chromosomes they can only compete against women. If they have XY chromosomes they can only compete against men. Tiffany has XY therefore she would have to compete against men if she wanted to compete. Simple science and logic. No matter how many surgeries she has she will alway have XY chromosomes. The committee would have to come up with a rule for people with Swyer syndrome which I think is perfectly fine. Has there ever been a high level athlete with Swyer syndrome? Chromosome testing last used in the Olympics over 20 years ago ... Here is a brief history (borrowed from Wikipedia) —- Chromosome testing was introduced by the International Olympic Committee during the 1968 Summer Olympics.[10] This tested for the presence of the SRY gene, which is found on the Y-chromosome, and was designed to identify males potentially disguised as females. This method of testing was later abolished, as it was shown to be inconclusive in identifying maleness.[11] The International Association of Athletics Federations ceased sex screening for all athletes in 1992,[12] but retained the option of assessing the sex of a participant should suspicions arise. A resolution was passed at the 1996 International Olympic Committee (IOC) World Conference on Women and Health "to discontinue the current process of gender verification during the Olympic Games". The International Olympic Committee's board voted to discontinue the practice in June 1999.[13] Chromosome testing was last performed at the Atlanta Olympic Games in 1996. —- So, your proposal doesn’t seem so simple and logical to me considering it was used and abandoned so long ago. There are a number of reasons it was abandoned years ago. Despite what they teach in high school biology class, sex determination isn't as simple as XX=girl, XY=boy. One example: androgen insensitivity syndrome. If your genetic makeup does not include the usual receptors of testosterone, your body can be flooded with it and you will still develop basically as a girl. These people have XY chromosomes, but they can be anywhere from almost normally male to almost normally female in their body development. Often it is not suspected until puberty. Of course, you might just say, "well, for the benefit of women's sports, these people will be excluded". However, you then have to deal with what happens when a person with XX chromosomes has (through a copying error) picked up the SRY gene and develops as a male. So they are good to go playing women's sports? There are also various other kinds of intersex conditions too. So quite some time ago it was recognized that genetic testing doesn't really do the job very well. It rules in some people that you probably don't want ruled in, and it rules out a bunch people there is no great reason to rule out. One could just say that professional sports are only for "normal" people, and kick the others out to the curb. That's pretty cruel, IMO, but if your overriding concern is the sanctity of the sport rather than the people who try to play it, that's a possibility. However, where does it end? What if (purely hypothetical) we find that there is a gene that 45% of the best female outsides in the world have, but only 0.0001% of all women have it? Would you then say that since they aren't "normal women" they won't be allowed to play? Just by height alone, only 1% of women in the US are 6' or taller. By the time you get up to 6'4'' it's a minute fraction of a percentage. Clearly these women are not "normal", so is it fair to let them play against "normal" women? But OK, I asked people to propose alternatives. One was proposed: testing for XX chromosomes. I doubt you will convince the international sports agencies to go back to a standard they abandoned as ineffective 20 years ago, but feel free to try. Any other proposals? |
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Post by volleyball303 on Jan 2, 2018 18:58:34 GMT -5
So is there a test out there to determine if someone was born a male or female? Obviously if not players could just lie. You can not tell for 100% that Tiffany was born a male just by looking at her. If there is no test it makes you wonder if there are players playing that are like Tiffany and just never come out with what their birth sex was.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jan 2, 2018 20:16:42 GMT -5
So is there a test out there to determine if someone was born a male or female? Obviously if not players could just lie. You can not tell for 100% that Tiffany was born a male just by looking at her. If there is no test it makes you wonder if there are players playing that are like Tiffany and just never come out with what their birth sex was. Well, the thing is, you are obviously operating from the premise that every person has "a birth sex". Even if that were not a simplification of a more complex reality, I question why it matters. Every person has a "birth height" but it's their height when they are actually playing that influences their volleyball ability. |
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Post by Fight On! on Jan 2, 2018 20:22:31 GMT -5
So is there a test out there to determine if someone was born a male or female? Have you read the multiple comments above explaining this? Or you just ignored them or don’t understand them? It isn’t true that every person is born fitting perfectly into one of two categories. Beyond 46,xx and 46,xy karyotypes (who are usually female and male), there are many other genetic combinations that occur (X, XXY, XYY, XXX). Beyond that, even people born with XY or XX chromosomes can have other conditions that cause their bodies to develop differently than most people with those same sex chromosomes. So, no, a simple test to determine that every single person has been born a male or female does not exist. Nor can a simple visual check of the genitalia work for many of the same reasons mentioned. |
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Post by huskerholiday on Jan 2, 2018 20:32:23 GMT -5
Mike, are you saying that there are no legitimate arguments or ideas that people should be able to discuss about this issue if they don't agree with you? This is a complex issue and there have been a lot of thoughtful comments. And since when on VT is arguing about the rules off limits? Open discussion and debate is good. If you disagree with someone, make your argument, but I don't see how making a list and trying to tell people that they shouldn't talk about things on the list is productive. Mike has the same problem on the political board. |
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Post by huskerholiday on Jan 2, 2018 20:33:55 GMT -5
People will whine and complain about anything. She is allowed to play, let her play. In other words...if they don't agree with you then shut up. |
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Post by volleyball303 on Jan 2, 2018 20:50:24 GMT -5
So is there a test out there to determine if someone was born a male or female? Have you read the multiple comments above explaining this? Or you just ignored them or don’t understand them? It isn’t true that every person is born fitting perfectly into one of two categories. Beyond 46,xx and 46,xy karyotypes (who are usually female and male), there are many other genetic combinations that occur (X, XXY, XYY, XXX). Beyond that, even people born with XY or XX chromosomes can have other conditions that cause their bodies to develop differently than most people with those same sex chromosomes. So, no, a simple test to determine that every single person has been born a male or female does not exist. Nor can a simple visual check of the genitalia work for many of the same reasons mentioned. Well 1 in 2000 births are something other than XX or XY so you are kinda reaching on the (X, XXY, XYY, XXX). Are you claiming Tiffany fits one of those rare groups? |
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Post by Fight On! on Jan 2, 2018 20:51:14 GMT -5
Have you read the multiple comments above explaining this? Or you just ignored them or don’t understand them? It isn’t true that every person is born fitting perfectly into one of two categories. Beyond 46,xx and 46,xy karyotypes (who are usually female and male), there are many other genetic combinations that occur (X, XXY, XYY, XXX). Beyond that, even people born with XY or XX chromosomes can have other conditions that cause their bodies to develop differently than most people with those same sex chromosomes. So, no, a simple test to determine that every single person has been born a male or female does not exist. Nor can a simple visual check of the genitalia work for many of the same reasons mentioned. Well 1 in 2000 births are something other than XX or XY so you are kinda reaching on the (X, XXY, XYY, XXX). Are you claiming Tiffany fits one of those rare groups? No, I was answering your question. |
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Post by huskerholiday on Jan 2, 2018 21:01:59 GMT -5
Have you read the multiple comments above explaining this? Or you just ignored them or don’t understand them? It isn’t true that every person is born fitting perfectly into one of two categories. Beyond 46,xx and 46,xy karyotypes (who are usually female and male), there are many other genetic combinations that occur (X, XXY, XYY, XXX). Beyond that, even people born with XY or XX chromosomes can have other conditions that cause their bodies to develop differently than most people with those same sex chromosomes. So, no, a simple test to determine that every single person has been born a male or female does not exist. Nor can a simple visual check of the genitalia work for many of the same reasons mentioned. Well 1 in 2000 births are something other than XX or XY so you are kinda reaching on the (X, XXY, XYY, XXX). Are you claiming Tiffany fits one of those rare groups? the truth is Tiffany has an unfair advantage but those who are poltically correct just cannot cope with that reality. |
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Post by Fight On! on Jan 2, 2018 21:04:01 GMT -5
Well 1 in 2000 births are something other than XX or XY so you are kinda reaching on the (X, XXY, XYY, XXX). Are you claiming Tiffany fits one of those rare groups? the truth is Tiffany has an unfair advantage but those who are poltically correct just cannot cope with that reality. Ahhh, the bigot who doesn’t want to be called bigoted after saying bigoted things. |
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Post by mikegarrison on Jan 2, 2018 21:07:32 GMT -5
Since it is a New Year, I hope we can leave the cycle of this particular argument behind: 1) She's too good to play. 1a) What does that mean in competitive sports? Is Zhu too good to play? 2) She has an unfair advantage. 2a) Doesn't everybody who makes it to the pro level, compared to average people? 3) She's still really a man re. sports performance [not usually said exactly like that, but it's what it boils down to]. 3a) Not by the rules everyone has agreed to play by. 4) The rules are wrong. 4a) So what measurable and objective rules do you propose? 5) I don't know, but the rules must be wrong because she's too good to play. . . . . Well, we have an answer to my hope. And that answer is "no, we will just continue running through the exact same cycle". |
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Post by bobthebuilder on Jan 3, 2018 0:15:41 GMT -5
I guess I see this as a man taking a spot from a female on a female team.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 5:02:13 GMT -5
I guess I see this as a man taking a spot from a female on a female team. Yikes. What a gross perspective. |
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Post by bobthebuilder on Jan 3, 2018 8:28:26 GMT -5
I guess I see this as a man taking a spot from a female on a female team. Yikes. What a gross perspective. Gross? |
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