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Post by rainbowbadger on Jan 3, 2018 9:12:14 GMT -5
Yikes. What a gross perspective. Gross? I'd've said abhorrent, but "gross" works okay, I guess. |
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Post by volleyball303 on Jan 3, 2018 9:44:16 GMT -5
I'd've said abhorrent, but "gross" works okay, I guess. This is exactly what pushes people away from the left and hurts progressive movements. Just in this tread people have been called hateful, bigots, told their opinions are gross and abhorrent. All this just for having an opinion different that yours. So much for tolerance and love. None of us know anything about each other besides out love for volleyball and participation on this board. Those are pretty strong and I would say hateful words to use to compete strangers. I know it’s a different subject but these kinda actions are all but guaranteeing republican reelection in 2018 and 2020. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 9:56:50 GMT -5
I'd've said abhorrent, but "gross" works okay, I guess. This is exactly what pushes people away from the left and hurts progressive movements. Just in this tread people have been called hateful, bigots, told their opinions are gross and abhorrent. All this just for having an opinion different that yours. So much for tolerance and love. None of us know anything about each other besides out love for volleyball and participation on this board. Those are pretty strong and I would say hateful words to use to compete frame> <iframe width="26.90000000000009" height="6.200000000000017" style="position: absolute; width: 26.9px; height: 6.2px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1278px; top: -271px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_73086057"></iframe> <iframe width="26.90000000000009" height="6.200000000000017" style="position: absolute; width: 26.9px; height: 6.2px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 10px; top: -17px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_23950385"></iframe> <iframe width="26.90000000000009" height="6.200000000000017" style="position: absolute; width: 26.9px; height: 6.2px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1278px; top: -17px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_78364357"></iframe> shhhhhh is the biggest troll in this forum and he takes everything personal and call people names all the time. I`m surprised he/she has not been blocked already due to his/hers comments which always comes with personal insults. shhh probably means SHAME. |
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Post by bobthebuilder on Jan 3, 2018 11:41:51 GMT -5
I'd've said abhorrent, but "gross" works okay, I guess. Ok, Mr. Gross/abhorent. Lets say you are one of the 30ish who get to come to the USA gym in an attempt to make the Olympic team. This has a been a dream of your since you were a little girl. One of the 30 is a man, lets call him Bobbet, who decided to become a woman. On the final day, you are excited and feel you have done enough to EARN a spot on the team. You check the list and find that you were left off but Bobbet, has made the Olympic team. Not only were you left off, but 18 other women who had the same dream did not make the Olympic team. Fair? |
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Post by mervinswerved on Jan 3, 2018 11:44:22 GMT -5
I'd've said abhorrent, but "gross" works okay, I guess. Ok, Mr. Gross/abhorent. Lets say you are one of the 30ish who get to come to the USA gym in an attempt to make the Olympic team. This has a been a dream of your since you were a little girl. One of the 30 is a man, lets call him Bobbet, who decided to become a woman. On the final day, you are excited and feel you have done enough to EARN a spot on the team. You check the list and find that you were left off but Bobbet, has made the Olympic team. Not only were you left off, but 18 other women who had the same dream did not make the Olympic team. Fair? Does she meet the requirements and standards of USA Volleyball, FIVB, and the IOC? If so, sure it's fair. |
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Post by rainbowbadger on Jan 3, 2018 11:48:41 GMT -5
Transwomen are women.
I don't know what else I can say.
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Post by rainbowbadger on Jan 3, 2018 11:53:43 GMT -5
I'd've said abhorrent, but "gross" works okay, I guess. This is exactly what pushes people away from the left and hurts progressive movements. Just in this tread people have been called hateful, bigots, told their opinions are gross and abhorrent. All this just for having an opinion different that yours. So much for tolerance and love. None of us know anything about each other besides out love for volleyball and participation on this board. Those are pretty strong and I would say hateful words to use to compete strangers. I know it’s a different subject but these kinda actions are all but guaranteeing republican reelection in 2018 and 2020. I will be tolerant and welcoming of people's opinions up to the point where their opinions deny the humanity of others. Gotta love the fragility exposed here. Transwomen are three times as likely to be sexually assaulted and more than four as likely to be murdered as ciswomen, and the anti-trans folks here are complaining about name-calling. |
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Post by mikegarrison on Jan 3, 2018 11:59:12 GMT -5
I'd've said abhorrent, but "gross" works okay, I guess. Ok, Mr. Gross/abhorent. Lets say you are one of the 30ish who get to come to the USA gym in an attempt to make the Olympic team. This has a been a dream of your since you were a little girl. One of the 30 is a man, lets call him Bobbet, who decided to become a woman. On the final day, you are excited and feel you have done enough to EARN a spot on the team. You check the list and find that you were left off but Bobbet, has made the Olympic team. Not only were you left off, but 18 other women who had the same dream did not make the Olympic team. Fair? Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of women had the same dream at some point but never even made it into the gym. Even if "Bobbet" hadn't been there, was it fair that someone stronger, taller, quicker, etc. took "their spot"? You are saying it's fair because you class those other players as "women", but you class "Bobbet" as "man". Well, the day they make you emperor of the universe, you can decide who is a woman and who is a man. Then you will think it's all fair. However, you're going to find out that a lot of other people won't think your decisions are very fair. Because guess what? Your opinions are not everybody else's opinions any more than their opinions are your opinions. Until that day when you are in charge, the rules say who is eligible to play on the women's team. And if the rules say that Bobbet is eligible, then damn straight it is fair if she outplayed those hundreds of other women who also dreamed of the Olympics. Otherwise you as asking for more of a lottery than a competitive trial. |
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Post by dgo on Jan 3, 2018 12:03:22 GMT -5
Ok, Mr. Gross/abhorent. Lets say you are one of the 30ish who get to come to the USA gym in an attempt to make the Olympic team. This has a been a dream of your since you were a little girl. One of the 30 is a man, lets call him Bobbet, who decided to become a woman. On the final day, you are excited and feel you have done enough to EARN a spot on the team. You check the list and find that you were left off but Bobbet, has made the Olympic team. Not only were you left off, but 18 other women who had the same dream did not make the Olympic team. Fair? Does she meet the requirements and standards of USA Volleyball, FIVB, and the IOC? If so, sure it's fair. I'm curious...Are you saying that you think this is fair, but that if the applicable governing bodies change their requirements/standards, you would think that this is unfair? Your position on this issue is based on their position? |
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Post by mikegarrison on Jan 3, 2018 12:08:42 GMT -5
Does she meet the requirements and standards of USA Volleyball, FIVB, and the IOC? If so, sure it's fair. I'm curious...Are you saying that you think this is fair, but that if the applicable governing bodies change their requirements/standards, you would think that this is unfair? Your position on this issue is based on their position? That's generally called "playing the game according to the rules". If the rules change, then how you play the game changes too. You don't have to have a libero on your team. You can play without one and moan that it is unfair that other teams use one, because you don't like the libero rule. After all, it's completely unfair to 6-rotation middles who would otherwise have earned a spot on the team. |
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Post by mervinswerved on Jan 3, 2018 12:12:31 GMT -5
Does she meet the requirements and standards of USA Volleyball, FIVB, and the IOC? If so, sure it's fair. I'm curious...Are you saying that you think this is fair, but that if the applicable governing bodies change their requirements/standards, you would think that this is unfair? Your position on this issue is based on their position? My reply was probably too flippant. I think selecting an ineligible player to the team would be unfair to everyone who didn't make it, but her mere eligibility doesn't determine whether I think it's right or wrong for a hypothetical trans woman to make a national team. There's probably a need to define terms like fair, equitable, and just in the context of this conversation. I think it's fair to everyone if a trans player (who meets the above requirements) is selected to the national team. I also think it's just. It may not be equitable, just like a cis woman getting picked because they're better then everyone else isn't equitable. Does that make sense? |
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Post by dgo on Jan 3, 2018 12:18:25 GMT -5
I'm curious...Are you saying that you think this is fair, but that if the applicable governing bodies change their requirements/standards, you would think that this is unfair? Your position on this issue is based on their position? That's generally called "playing the game according to the rules". If the rules change, then how you play the game changes too. You don't have to have a libero on your team. You can play without one and moan that it is unfair that other teams use one, because you don't like the libero rule. After all, it's completely unfair to 6-rotation middles who would otherwise have earned a spot on the team. Fair enough. I agree. But part of what is happening in this thread is that some people are having a difference of opinion on whether the rule is "fair" (whatever that means). The question that was posed was, in essence, "do you think the rule is fair?" To answer it with "that's the rule" really avoids the question (and is viewed by some as an attempt to shut down the discussion). My question was, in essence, "if the rule reversed, would you support the new rule?" We can have a thread on "what is the rule?" It will be a boring thread that can run its course in one or two posts. For good or bad, this thread had evolved into "do you think the rule is fair?" It's a different question, but some people seem insistent on just answering the first question. |
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Post by SportyBucky on Jan 3, 2018 12:20:41 GMT -5
They way I feel having stumbled into this thread is the way I feel when I walked in on my parents doing it. And to be clear, it has nothing to do with anything related to being transgender and everything to do with some of you having this convesation.
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Post by mervinswerved on Jan 3, 2018 12:23:26 GMT -5
I think the rule is just. People should have the right to live their lives and pursue their careers. I understand how others can feel differently when it comes to professional sports. The standards set by the IOC, NCAA, and their counterparts seem reasonable to me.
I'm not sure a rule can itself be "fair" or "unfair," only the application of the rule.
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Post by dgo on Jan 3, 2018 12:24:42 GMT -5
I'm curious...Are you saying that you think this is fair, but that if the applicable governing bodies change their requirements/standards, you would think that this is unfair? Your position on this issue is based on their position? My reply was probably too flippant. I think selecting an ineligible player to the team would be unfair to everyone who didn't make it, but her mere eligibility doesn't determine whether I think it's right or wrong for a hypothetical trans woman to make a national team. There's probably a need to define terms like fair, equitable, and just in the context of this conversation. I think it's fair to everyone if a trans player (who meets the above requirements) is selected to the national team. I also think it's just. It may not be equitable, just like a cis woman getting picked because they're better then everyone else isn't equitable. Does that make sense? It does. One of the reasons I think that my question to those in the "rules are rules" camp is interesting in the discussion is because I think that successful transgender athletes like Tiffany might actually cause a backlash. For many years those who support allowing MTF to participate have argued that they have no advantage (and potentially a disadvantage). Even if rare, high profile examples (like Tiffany might become...the jury is out) could cause governing bodies to face pressure to reconsider their position. |
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