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Post by lo4um on Dec 6, 2017 19:52:43 GMT -5
Someday one of your daughters, granddaughters, or your favorite team will lose at the hands of a man on the opposing team & maybe, just maybe it will click. Where’s the benefit? Besides for the team he is on & the person living his dream tearing it up in a women’s league, what gives? I've been flat-out owned by women while playing co-ed ultimate. That's kind of the same thing, right? Co-ed is meant for both genders. Is there any women playing in the men’s league & having success?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2017 20:13:10 GMT -5
Does Tiffany still has the "male genital"??...I was just wondering if the other players would feel uncomfortable in the locker room if she still has it.
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Post by volleyball303 on Dec 6, 2017 20:14:25 GMT -5
Just because someone doesn’t agree they are small minded? That's crap. He called him small-minded because he said something small-minded, not because he said something he disagreed with. Well he called me transphobic for saying she was born with an X and a Y chromosome. He is clearly pretty sensitive about the subject.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Dec 6, 2017 20:43:36 GMT -5
This was an average male player from the Belgian 2nd division who, as a woman, became a highly-productive scorer in the Italian A2 and now has a contract in the Brazilian Superliga - significantly higher levels of play. And to go up the ladder by THAT much on the wrong side of 30.....
I (as likely many other of the volleygays here) have played alongside several transgender athletes in various capacities and at various stages of their transition. And I have personally observed a large decline in performance in individuals who have started hormone therapy and totally understand when these athletes report that they do not play like they did before. However, that does not mean it's the same level as a ciswoman, even with the decline in muscle mass, bone density, and physicality. Height is such a significant factor in volleyball, for one, that having the male advantage for height almost makes it inevitable to be a higher caliber player in a women's division. And if the idea of having a women's division (particularly at the elite levels) is to give sporting opportunities to elite female athletes (elite vis-a-vis other women), it becomes a difficult question to allow transwomen to compete.
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 6, 2017 21:47:14 GMT -5
it becomes a difficult question to allow transwomen to compete. Difficult questions are the best kind. For instance, it is also difficult to NOT allow them to compete. In car racing, there is a concept called "spec", in which rules strictly govern what you can do to a car. This isn't Formula 1, where within certain limits you can spend as much money as you want to create a technological masterpiece. Spec Miata, for instance, takes old Miatas and gives you very few options about what you can do to them. Mostly just make them safer for racing and tweak the springs and shocks. The idea is supposed to be that with all the cars being equal, it's the driving skill that makes the difference. And it's a popular way to race cars (though not the only popular way to do it). But people aren't Miatas. We don't all come from the factory with the same design. EVERY competitor is going to be different and have some different advantages or not. And there are really only three ways to handle that -- let anyone compete with anyone, handicap people (eg. like how they add weight to faster race horses to make it a closer race), or come up with rules about who can play in what divisions. In any event, you simply have to accept that some people are going to be more advantaged than others, however you make your rules. Lowering the net would help some volleyball players more than others. Raising the net would hurt some volleyball players more than others. 100 meters is the best distance for some runners. 200 meters is the best for others. There are probably people who are best at 150 meters, but we don't run a 150 meter dash. The rules will always end up letting someone have an advantage. Anyway, with a lot of thought, people have tried to come up with rules to govern who is allowed to compete in women's sports and who is not. And that's that. As long as she meets the rules, if she has certain advantages (like being 6'5'' or a muscle and bone structure that was bathed in more testosterone during puberty than other women), then she does. If the rules need to be improved, then suggest new ones. But be ready for the new suggestions to have negative consequences -- maybe more than the old ones did. I don't think women athletes want to go back to the days when some doctor would be poking around their crotch trying to certify that they are actually women. The current rules based on hormone levels seem to be the best we can do, for now anyway.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Dec 6, 2017 21:59:51 GMT -5
it becomes a difficult question to allow transwomen to compete. In any event, you simply have to accept that some people are going to be more advantaged than others, however you make your rules. Lowering the net would help some volleyball players more than others. Raising the net would hurt some volleyball players more than others. 100 meters is the best distance for some runners. 200 meters is the best for others. There are probably people who are best at 150 meters, but we don't run a 150 meter dash. The rules will always end up letting someone have an advantage. But the women's division exists solely to mitigate one single advantage, and ignoring that advantage in this case goes against the entire purpose of segregating athletic competitions by sex.
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 6, 2017 22:01:37 GMT -5
In any event, you simply have to accept that some people are going to be more advantaged than others, however you make your rules. Lowering the net would help some volleyball players more than others. Raising the net would hurt some volleyball players more than others. 100 meters is the best distance for some runners. 200 meters is the best for others. There are probably people who are best at 150 meters, but we don't run a 150 meter dash. The rules will always end up letting someone have an advantage. But the women's division exists solely to mitigate one single advantage, and ignoring that advantage in this case goes against the entire purpose of segregating athletic competitions by sex. What's that one single advantage?
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Post by c4ndlelight on Dec 6, 2017 22:07:51 GMT -5
But the women's division exists solely to mitigate one single advantage, and ignoring that advantage in this case goes against the entire purpose of segregating athletic competitions by sex. What's that one single advantage? Benefitting from male/masculine secondary sex characteristics
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 6, 2017 22:29:18 GMT -5
What's that one single advantage? Benefitting from male/masculine secondary sex characteristics You mean like higher pay? Or beards? No menstruation? No, you have to get more specific than that in order to have a useful discussion. Stronger bones? More muscle mass? Different hips? Higher levels of violent aggression? Taller? There is no "one single advantage". There are a whole bunch of them, but in each case men and women all have those but in different amounts. Lots of men are taller than lots of women, but some women are taller than other women and some women are even taller than some men. Some women are stronger than other women. Etc. There is no one single difference between men and women, and that's what makes it complicated. Even chromosomes don't work, because some teratogenic women, for instance, do have a Y-chromosome, but other genes prevent the testosterone from activating. They usually don't ever know it until they go through puberty and don't start menstruating. (They are also unable to have children.) And some people have chimerism, making part of their body genetically different from the rest of it. Bottom line is that people are all different, and wherever you draw the line there would be people just on either side of it. For instance, a rule could be made that it's not fair for most women to have to play against players who are more than 190cm, so instead of a "women's" league we could have a U190 volleyball league. But that would leave some women having to try to compete with the tall men, and many short guys who would still have the other advantages of strength and muscle mass, etc. The history of enforcing purity in terms of who qualifies for women's sports is rather sordid. I think the current rules based on hormone levels are probably better than the alternatives.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Dec 6, 2017 22:33:55 GMT -5
Benefitting from male/masculine secondary sex characteristics You mean like higher pay? Or beards? No menstruation? Stopped reading here. You're being willfully obtuse.
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Post by volleyball303 on Dec 6, 2017 22:36:12 GMT -5
To say it’s not a movement that is somewhat concerning is ridiculous. Times are changing and I just hope this does not end up hurting women’s sports. A women missed the podium in this case. A women that probably trained her whole life for this moment. Letting men develop for 25 years than become women is anti female and anti women’s sports. sports.yahoo.com/transgender-weightlifter-wins-silver-medal-social-media-abuse-161031998.htmlBy the way I support these women in what they want to do with their lives but taking away others women’s rights is wrong.
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 6, 2017 22:40:47 GMT -5
You mean like higher pay? Or beards? No menstruation? Stopped reading here. You're being willfully obtuse. No, you are uncharacteristically arguing like an idiot. You are taking a very complicated problem, simplifying it until the simplification hides all the complication, and then declaring it a simple problem. That rhetorical BS, and I'm calling you on it.
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 6, 2017 22:42:18 GMT -5
By the way I support these women in what they want to do with their lives Except sports is what they want to do with their lives, and you don't support it.
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Post by volleyball303 on Dec 6, 2017 22:52:17 GMT -5
By the way I support these women in what they want to do with their lives Except sports is what they want to do with their lives, and you don't support it. They are more than welcome to make their own leagues. If the movement was big enough I would totally support the Olympics have a 3rd transgender division.
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Post by volleyball303 on Dec 6, 2017 22:56:50 GMT -5
By the way I support these women in what they want to do with their lives Except sports is what they want to do with their lives, and you don't support it. So if Tiffany wants to come get a college degree in the states you are perfectly okay with her playing for your teams rival school? From every video I have seen she would be the best player in D1 college volleyball. Move over Plummer more over Washington you are not longer in the running for NPOY. For the next 4 years that belongs to Tiffany. Sorry you did not have the advantage of 25 years of male Testosterone and growth...
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