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Post by baytree on Oct 19, 2018 0:56:52 GMT -5
And all we had to do for that success is turn the program over to a couple who turned a blind eye to sexual abuse -- and participated in other forms of abuse. No thanks. Oh come on now, Ruff-Ruff. As the person above me pointed out this is a specious argument. You can't intrinsically link their success as coaches and the success of the program in general to the fact that they were horrible people. If anything I would say them turning a blind eye was detrimental to the program (even before the exposure/fallout that came). Regardless, it's a cheap shot to try to prove your point by tugging the heart strings and invoking abuse when that really doesn't have any logical connection to the discussion. It's not a good look to invoke someone else's sexual abuse and trauma to score cheap points in some argument on an internet message board. I took the point to be that USA Gymnastics was more interested in winning than the well-being of its players. While the two aren't necessarily connected, there are competitive advantages to overlooking issues that may hurt the athletes, esp longterm, in order to gain immediate benefits. Even ignoring the sexual abuse, it's fairly common for athletes to feel pushed to train or play when they have injuries (another problem with US Gymnastics). Pro sports have a similar issue with concussions.
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Post by jay on Oct 19, 2018 1:02:59 GMT -5
To get a actual performance perspective Bosko just hit one 299cm at 97kms against the Dutch in the semi's. Egonu at 300cm and 101 kms against China..
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Post by 23flavors on Oct 19, 2018 5:31:20 GMT -5
None of it matters anyways... whoever the best ones are and give us a chance to win gold will be left at home anyways
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Post by skullars on Oct 19, 2018 7:12:04 GMT -5
How can we expedite citizenship for Isabelle Haak?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 7:41:19 GMT -5
Yes, the sexual abuse was a symptom of the rot. If you think that was the only thing wrong with the Karolyis' system, I can't help you.
This isn't a cheapshot. USAG was given as an example of something better. It is not.
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Post by Hawk Attack on Oct 19, 2018 8:09:37 GMT -5
This isn't a cheapshot. USAG was given as an example of something better. It is not. No it wasn’t, you said USA could never dominate in women’s volleyball and I gave you an example of a similar thought in another Olympic sport that USA was able to turn around into domination. The USAG system wasn’t/isn’t perfect but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a LOT to be learned from it. There’s maybe even more to learn from it’s failures than it’s successes, and if USAV took an eagle eye into that program they could probably learn a lot about their own incompetencies.
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Post by n00b on Oct 19, 2018 9:08:04 GMT -5
And all we had to do for that success is turn the program over to a couple who turned a blind eye to sexual abuse -- and participated in other forms of abuse. No thanks. I 100% agree with you. But how is that different than numerous college coaches turning a blind eye to Rick Butler? So it’s wrong for college coaches to win by playing SPRI athletes, but not the National Team? If that’s your standard, shouldn’t we kick out Robinson , Murphy and Carlini?
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Post by baytree on Oct 19, 2018 9:10:52 GMT -5
I 100% agree with you. But how is that different than numerous college coaches turning a blind eye to Rick Butler? So it’s wrong for college coaches to win by playing SPRI athletes, but not the National Team? If that’s your standard, shouldn’t we kick out Robinson , Murphy and Carlini? Why don't you answer the question: How is the Karolys overlooking Nassar's sexual abuse different than numerous college coaches overlooking Rick Butler's? You could ask the same of USA Gymnastics and USA Volleyball.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 9:16:47 GMT -5
I still don't understand why people think the sexual abuse was the only thing wrong with USAG. It was pervasive. And it all went back to the methods of the Karolyis. So, no, I don't think USAG has anything to offer USAV in terms of a model. Furthermore, I don't think gymnastics and volleyball are the same animal. We are talking children (and the abuse thereof) and adults.
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Post by n00b on Oct 19, 2018 9:22:38 GMT -5
So it’s wrong for college coaches to win by playing SPRI athletes, but not the National Team? If that’s your standard, shouldn’t we kick out Robinson , Murphy and Carlini? Why don't you answer the question: How is the Karolys overlooking Nassar's sexual abuse different than numerous college coaches overlooking Rick Butler's? You could ask the same of USA Gymnastics and USA Volleyball. I know essentially nothing about the gymnastics story.
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Post by huskerjen on Oct 19, 2018 9:37:27 GMT -5
She hasn't improved in the back row at all. She has simply been given a chance to sink or swim, unlike at TX where she had a much shorter leash. If Eric Sullivan can't improve your passing and defense, Banwarth ain't going to do it. You also don't see things as fundamental as passing improve, PARTICULARLY OVER A SEVERAL MONTH TIMEFRAME WHEN THE PLAYER WASN'T PLAYING BECAUSE OF A BACK INJURY. WTF?!?!?! Texas recruits high-flying bombers and hopes walk ons and a scholarshipped libero can pass well enough to make up for the passing deficits elsewhere. I completely disagree. I also think you're contradicting yourself. Was she given enough chances at Texas for us to know if she's improved, or not? It sounds like you haven't watched Nebraska play this year - because most would agree her backrow defense has been surprisingly good. If she hasn't improved or Texas was stupid and didn't let her play is honestly irrelevant - she's showing promise for only playing a few months in 6-rotations full-time. Not to mention that Sullivan hasn't developed anyone. He's terrible.
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Post by yupyupyup on Oct 19, 2018 10:08:35 GMT -5
I completely disagree. I also think you're contradicting yourself. Was she given enough chances at Texas for us to know if she's improved, or not? It sounds like you haven't watched Nebraska play this year - because most would agree her backrow defense has been surprisingly good. If she hasn't improved or Texas was stupid and didn't let her play is honestly irrelevant - she's showing promise for only playing a few months in 6-rotations full-time. Not to mention that Sullivan hasn't developed anyone. He's terrible. Not sure if it’s Sullivan or more the system created at Texas. Texas doesn’t develop all around players. They will usually DS one or both OHs, and DS the RS. This leaves a high ball to the outside oos since that’s the only option. The reason they are competitive year in and year out is due to the caliber of athletes on the team, not because of their ability to develop within their system.
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Post by chicagosports on Oct 19, 2018 10:29:09 GMT -5
The USA is never going to dominate in volleyball. The rest of the world is too good. But, sure. Keep leaning on that panic button. Because NCAA stars (still in college or one year out) are the answer. And if only Plum was our setter ... etc. etc. This only bothers me because it denigrates the talented athletes busting their buns to medal for our country. Cry yourself a river. We would've been dominant #1 the past six years if Karch hadn't become coach and introduced the desperation system. Even though he's incapable of releasing his control neurosis doesn't mean the collegiate players who need to be in the gym for their prime post Tokyo quad can't join in already. From a technique perspective that's one area, even if it's the only area, Karch can help players with. If he brings in Butler along with a few others and helps develop them then in my book that alone will atone for much of the damage he's done. If he doesn't and purely rides the aging vets then the recovery will be delayed another couple years after he leaves. You've had your mind made up on Butler, so what was the point of this thread? No real discussion to be had with you on the OPP position. Agreed on Karch comments.
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Post by SportyBucky on Oct 19, 2018 10:34:13 GMT -5
Not to mention that Sullivan hasn't developed anyone. He's terrible. Not sure if it’s Sullivan or more the system created at Texas. Texas doesn’t develop all around players. They will usually DS one or both OHs, and DS the RS. This leaves a high ball to the outside oos since that’s the only option. The reason they are competitive year in and year out is due to the caliber of athletes on the team, not because of their ability to develop within their system. Or maybe it's who they recruit and where they are with regard to those skills. White is as good as Foecke in the back row. Two big bangers...neither particularly skilled back row players when they started. Both progressed, but they're not Annika A because they never needed to be. I really don't think that TX and Sullivan couldn't develop passers...it's just not a skill every player possesses or can develop.
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Post by andyberg on Oct 19, 2018 10:38:13 GMT -5
The Karolyi's created an environment of fear that silenced athletes who may have wanted to speak up. They kept Nassar around because he would clear athletes to compete with injuries. They were mentally abusive, degrading girls for their weight and other things. This culture at the ranch (the former USAG national training facility) permeated to local gyms, where athletes would face similarly horrible conditions daily. It should be obvious that no one was advocating for these kinds of conditions in volleyball.
My comment about USAG was simply that they are dominant. There is no one competing with them in the team and all around competitions. The only golds at the upcoming Worlds that won't be won by Americans are bars (none of our athletes are gold medal contenders) and beam (only if Simone messes up and others hit their full difficulty). I would say that is pretty dominant.
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