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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 2:11:47 GMT -5
Actually, Logan Eggleston from Texas has a hybrid serve. So does Mariena Hayden from UNLV. The two I mentioned before are the only ones who come to mind who do a true topspin serve, which are Paige Jones of Michigan and Jonni Parker of Penn State. Maia Dvoracek of Cal Poly. |
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Post by n00b on Mar 28, 2020 8:29:30 GMT -5
Actually, Logan Eggleston from Texas has a hybrid serve. So does Mariena Hayden from UNLV. The two I mentioned before are the only ones who come to mind who do a true topspin serve, which are Paige Jones of Michigan and Jonni Parker of Penn State. I think you’re pointing out a difference of technique, not what the serve actually does. Eggleston’s and Hayden’s serves have top spin 100% of the time. It’s true that they don’t have the high, spinning toss like Micha Hancock but for the passers it’s still just passing a topspin serve. |
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Post by n00b on Mar 28, 2020 8:35:34 GMT -5
The small sample size of TS serves makes it difficult to say for certain but I'd wager the reason TS serves have a lower GP% overall is because the relative skill and physical strength required to do a good one means the skill level of those TS servers is higher than that of the average SA, even at the D1 level. FYI, those stats were still based on over 2,800 jump (topspin) serves in Power 5 conference matches. That's pretty substantial. But when I posted the top 10 individuals, that's why most are jump floaters. And if we're limiting it to just the Power 5, isn't that already a pretty strong, skilled subset of athletes? |
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Post by winesalot on Mar 28, 2020 8:59:51 GMT -5
The small sample size of TS serves makes it difficult to say for certain but I'd wager the reason TS serves have a lower GP% overall is because the relative skill and physical strength required to do a good one means the skill level of those TS servers is higher than that of the average SA, even at the D1 level. FYI, those stats were still based on over 2,800 jump (topspin) serves in Power 5 conference matches. That's pretty substantial. But when I posted the top 10 individuals, that's why most are jump floaters. And if we're limiting it to just the Power 5, isn't that already a pretty strong, skilled subset of athletes? Is there a way to access those same numbers for the Pro Women's game? I believe that would be the only way to truly assess the efficacy of the TS serve for females. If you take athletes at the top of their game, they should have the skill and strength to execute. But how effective is it for the women's game? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 9:10:23 GMT -5
The small sample size of TS serves makes it difficult to say for certain but I'd wager the reason TS serves have a lower GP% overall is because the relative skill and physical strength required to do a good one means the skill level of those TS servers is higher than that of the average SA, even at the D1 level. FYI, those stats were still based on over 2,800 jump (topspin) serves in Power 5 conference matches. That's pretty substantial. But when I posted the top 10 individuals, that's why most are jump floaters. And if we're limiting it to just the Power 5, isn't that already a pretty strong, skilled subset of athletes? 2,800... of 56,000. 5% is still just 5%. And evidently not, relative to this query. I think you agree with this but that was my initial point regarding the relative lack of TS serves in pre-collegiate athletes. My contention was that the limiting factor was a physical one, rather than coaching or a concern for the shoulder etc. Even among the highest tier of collegiate volleyball players (D1), the group of athletes that are capable of serving a ball, with control, that will travel at >88kph is relatively small. Based on the data you posted it's only about 5% of D1 athletes. |
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Mar 28, 2020 9:16:39 GMT -5
FYI, those stats were still based on over 2,800 jump (topspin) serves in Power 5 conference matches. That's pretty substantial. But when I posted the top 10 individuals, that's why most are jump floaters. And if we're limiting it to just the Power 5, isn't that already a pretty strong, skilled subset of athletes? Is there a way to access those same numbers for the Pro Women's game? I believe that would be the only way to truly assess the efficacy of the TS serve for females. If you take athletes at the top of their game, they should have the skill and strength to execute. But how effective is it for the women's game? Boskovic, Egonu, De La Cruz have had very effective TS serves in recent history. Three top physical athletes in women’s volleyball. Then look at the effectiveness of Puerto Rico’s jump serving — not so much. DLC opened up an 11-0 lead to start the 5th set at the World Cup vs. Netherlands. That had to have been a record. Rasic, one of the best JF, had an error to give China gold medal point in Rio. |
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Post by n00b on Mar 28, 2020 12:18:58 GMT -5
FYI, those stats were still based on over 2,800 jump (topspin) serves in Power 5 conference matches. That's pretty substantial. But when I posted the top 10 individuals, that's why most are jump floaters. And if we're limiting it to just the Power 5, isn't that already a pretty strong, skilled subset of athletes? 2,800... of 56,000. 5% is still just 5%. And evidently not, relative to this query. I think you agree with this but that was my initial point regarding the relative lack of TS serves in pre-collegiate athletes. My contention was that the limiting factor was a physical one, rather than coaching or a concern for the shoulder etc. Even among the highest tier of collegiate volleyball players (D1), the group of athletes that are capable of serving a ball, with control, that will travel at >88kph is relatively small. Based on the data you posted it's only about 5% of D1 athletes. I just meant that it wasn’t small sample size variance that had TS serves as tougher than JFs. Who says you need to serve the ball that fast to be effective in the college game? I think this is an example of taking a study of Olympic-level players and it being applied at other levels. Those are just the players that choose to do it (or are allowed to by their coach). And I think A LOT of that comes from the influence of USAV saying not to. Unsurprisingly, the Pac-12 is second fewest of all conferences with only 0.4% of their serves being TS. That certainly isn’t because they have the fewest athletes who are physically capable of doing it. It’s because their coaches are almost uniformly GM2 people and Karch said it’s not effective so they listen. (Big Sky is the lowest at 0.08%) |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 12:51:39 GMT -5
2,800... of 56,000. 5% is still just 5%. And evidently not, relative to this query. I think you agree with this but that was my initial point regarding the relative lack of TS serves in pre-collegiate athletes. My contention was that the limiting factor was a physical one, rather than coaching or a concern for the shoulder etc. Even among the highest tier of collegiate volleyball players (D1), the group of athletes that are capable of serving a ball, with control, that will travel at >88kph is relatively small. Based on the data you posted it's only about 5% of D1 athletes. I just meant that it wasn’t small sample size variance that had TS serves as tougher than JFs. Who says you need to serve the ball that fast to be effective in the college game? I think this is an example of taking a study of Olympic-level players and it being applied at other levels. Those are just the players that choose to do it (or are allowed to by their coach). And I think A LOT of that comes from the influence of USAV saying not to. Unsurprisingly, the Pac-12 is second fewest of all conferences with only 0.4% of their serves being TS. That certainly isn’t because they have the fewest athletes who are physically capable of doing it. It’s because their coaches are almost uniformly GM2 people and Karch said it’s not effective so they listen. (Big Sky is the lowest at 0.08%) Karch's objection isn't due to its effectiveness but its efficiency. Most TS servers commit too many errors for his liking, which goes back to control. As others have noted; if you look at the Olympic level, there are female players physically capable of producing a wicked TS serve (they all have rare physical tools) and the proliferation of TS serves in the men's game indicates the reason for the disparity between the genders... It is an issue of velocity. Which equates to physical strength. If women were as strong as men, you would see similar numbers of TS servers in the women's game, regardless of where the coaches came from! |
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Post by n00b on Mar 28, 2020 14:03:26 GMT -5
I just meant that it wasn’t small sample size variance that had TS serves as tougher than JFs. Who says you need to serve the ball that fast to be effective in the college game? I think this is an example of taking a study of Olympic-level players and it being applied at other levels. Those are just the players that choose to do it (or are allowed to by their coach). And I think A LOT of that comes from the influence of USAV saying not to. Unsurprisingly, the Pac-12 is second fewest of all conferences with only 0.4% of their serves being TS. That certainly isn’t because they have the fewest athletes who are physically capable of doing it. It’s because their coaches are almost uniformly GM2 people and Karch said it’s not effective so they listen. (Big Sky is the lowest at 0.08%) Karch's objection isn't due to its effectiveness but its efficiency. Most TS servers commit too many errors for his liking, which goes back to control. As others have noted; if you look at the Olympic level, there are female players physically capable of producing a wicked TS serve (they all have rare physical tools) and the proliferation of TS serves in the men's game indicates the reason for the disparity between the genders... It is an issue of velocity. Which equates to physical strength. If women were as strong as men, you would see similar numbers of TS servers in the women's game, regardless of where the coaches came from! Totally agree, but the velocity needed to be effective in the Pac-12 is going to be lower than what is needed in the Olympics. For the record, I'm not saying Karch is wrong for his gym. It's just worth pointing out that there are different way to maximize effectiveness at different levels. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 14:39:59 GMT -5
Karch's objection isn't due to its effectiveness but its efficiency. Most TS servers commit too many errors for his liking, which goes back to control. As others have noted; if you look at the Olympic level, there are female players physically capable of producing a wicked TS serve (they all have rare physical tools) and the proliferation of TS serves in the men's game indicates the reason for the disparity between the genders... It is an issue of velocity. Which equates to physical strength. If women were as strong as men, you would see similar numbers of TS servers in the women's game, regardless of where the coaches came from! Totally agree, but the velocity needed to be effective in the Pac-12 is going to be lower than what is needed in the Olympics. For the record, I'm not saying Karch is wrong for his gym. It's just worth pointing out that there are different way to maximize effectiveness at different levels. Yeah, I'm with you and I think we're both on the same side of this. And as an aside, thanks for the chat. I just wanted to point out that there's a minimum requirement in terms of velocity in order to have a functional TS serve and if a player can't hit that she's better off working on her JF. Also given what a player like Rettke has done with her serve in the last 12 months, in terms of lowering the opponents good pass percentage against her (I know you can see the numbers so I won't bother posting them), there's nothing wrong with developing a really tough JF serve. The fact that she went from middle of the road in 2018 to having the toughest serve in the toughest conference in D1 a year later is a testament to what can be done. |
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Post by Disc808 on Mar 28, 2020 14:44:26 GMT -5
Totally agree, but the velocity needed to be effective in the Pac-12 is going to be lower than what is needed in the Olympics. For the record, I'm not saying Karch is wrong for his gym. It's just worth pointing out that there are different way to maximize effectiveness at different levels. Yeah, I'm with you and I think we're both on the same side of this. And as an aside, thanks for the chat. I just wanted to point out that there's a minimum requirement in terms of velocity in order to have a functional TS serve and if a player can't hit that she's better off working on her JF. Also given what a player like Rettke has done with her serve in the last 12 months, in terms of lowering the opponents good pass percentage against her (I know you can see the numbers so I won't bother posting them), there's nothing wrong with developing a really tough JF serve. The fact that she went from middle of the road in 2018 to having the toughest serve in the toughest conference in D1 a year later is a testament to what can be done. The height she serves at too |
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Post by jakesbff on Jun 11, 2020 12:20:16 GMT -5
just saw the HP rosters were posted. Mele Corral-Blagojevich was assigned to A2? That doesn't seem accurate.....
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Post by badgerblockparty on Jun 11, 2020 12:32:42 GMT -5
just saw the HP rosters were posted. Mele Corral-Blagojevich was assigned to A2? That doesn't seem accurate..... Where are the rosters posted? |
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Post by winesalot on Jun 11, 2020 12:44:22 GMT -5
just saw the HP rosters were posted. Mele Corral-Blagojevich was assigned to A2? That doesn't seem accurate..... She's not the only one who dropped from A1. And lots of names missing from last year across the various programs. I know my niece didn't bother this year (she's been the last 2 years). Normally, I would say that maybe she (Mele) only made A1 last year because other people declined and she got moved up, but from what I've heard she's a stellar athlete. Maybe it was the video she sent? Or if she tried out in person, she had an off day? |
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Post by volleyparent on Jun 11, 2020 12:57:44 GMT -5
I don’t think this year really can reflect the talent. Most girls had to submit a video of a set.
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