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Post by jammaster on Mar 27, 2020 13:44:33 GMT -5
I will be honest. This isn’t player bashing and anything to do with the player. It’s your idea that this 15 yo has a top serve (serving against other 15 yo) better than college players, female and men and most other 15-18 year olds. So the problem isn’t the girl, it’s your idea. Here, let me repeat my comment from earlier: "And from the service line, it is not uncommon to see her rattle off multiple aces in a row with her topspin serve. If you go to about 3:39 in the video (serving section), you can see the ball twist to the right quite a bit. That takes some power and finesse to do. Rarely do I even see college girls with topspin serves. It is mostly prevalent in men’s."Nowhere in this comment does it state she is serving better than college players. I said the way in which she is hitting the topspin takes some power and finesse to do, to not only make it dip quickly, but also putting english on it to make it curve like she is doing. To me, that is impressive that at 15, this kid can serve like that. Worth noting that developing and leaning on a topspin serve at that age increases the risk of her shoulder being as one coach put it "crab meat" by the time she is ready for university play. Something to think about... |
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Post by c4ndlelight on Mar 27, 2020 14:35:29 GMT -5
Not just serving...top spin serving like never seen before. I thought this was a forum where folks build up players and appreciate talent. Not a place where player bashing is occurring at any level. Maybe this isn't the forum for you my friend. If you don't have something nice to say about someone, maybe you should keep your negative input to yourself. You have fewer than two dozen posts on this site and literally 3 of them are you bashing different players in this class. |
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Post by axelfoley on Mar 27, 2020 14:41:43 GMT -5
I thought this was a forum where folks build up players and appreciate talent. Not a place where player bashing is occurring at any level. Maybe this isn't the forum for you my friend. If you don't have something nice to say about someone, maybe you should keep your negative input to yourself. You have fewer than two dozen posts on this site and literally 3 of them are you bashing different players in this class. You beat me to it... |
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Post by mikasa01 on Mar 27, 2020 18:39:53 GMT -5
Worth noting that developing and leaning on a topspin serve at that age increases the risk of her shoulder being as one coach put it "crab meat" by the time she is ready for university play. Something to think about... First time I have ever heard of that. I would guess that if the arm/shoulder isn't being properly warmed up and stretched prior to game play then this could happen. |
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Post by vbjustice on Mar 27, 2020 19:38:27 GMT -5
I thought this was a forum where folks build up players and appreciate talent. Not a place where player bashing is occurring at any level. Maybe this isn't the forum for you my friend. If you don't have something nice to say about someone, maybe you should keep your negative input to yourself. You have fewer than two dozen posts on this site and literally 3 of them are you bashing different players in this class. Someone came with receipts. I love it. Lol! |
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Post by cbrown1709 on Mar 27, 2020 19:48:50 GMT -5
Worth noting that developing and leaning on a topspin serve at that age increases the risk of her shoulder being as one coach put it "crab meat" by the time she is ready for university play. Something to think about... First time I have ever heard of that. I would guess that if the arm/shoulder isn't being properly warmed up and stretched prior to game play then this could happen. This is why you don't see it as much in the college game, not because they didn't warm up correctly. Also, most college coaches are finding that an effective float serve is not only easier on the shoulder but easier to teach and more effective than the top spin. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2020 20:09:07 GMT -5
First time I have ever heard of that. I would guess that if the arm/shoulder isn't being properly warmed up and stretched prior to game play then this could happen. This is why you don't see it as much in the college game, not because they didn't warm up correctly. Also, most college coaches are finding that an effective float serve is not only easier on the shoulder but easier to teach and more effective than the top spin. That's very situational. The reason TS serves aren't taught at younger ages in the women's game is because most girls can't hit them hard enough or consistently enough to make them more effective that a float serve. A weak TS serve is very easy to pass. That translates to college. The vast majority of the most effective serves in D1 (based on opponent good pass percentage) are jump floats. Of course, when you get to professional or international level, you see a higher percentage of TS serves because that's the top of the pyramid athletically and if a player IS strong enough and accurate enough to hit a booming TS serve, it can be very effective. But it all depends on the athlete and it's simply not viable en masse. And to the point about TS serves damaging the shoulder; assuming the server has good mechanics it really isn't much of an issue. |
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Post by jammaster on Mar 27, 2020 20:54:07 GMT -5
This is why you don't see it as much in the college game, not because they didn't warm up correctly. Also, most college coaches are finding that an effective float serve is not only easier on the shoulder but easier to teach and more effective than the top spin. That's very situational. The reason TS serves aren't taught at younger ages in the women's game is because most girls can't hit them hard enough or consistently enough to make them more effective that a float serve. A weak TS serve is very easy to pass. That translates to college. The vast majority of the most effective serves in D1 (based on opponent good pass percentage) are jump floats. Of course, when you get to professional or international level, you see a higher percentage of TS serves because that's the top of the pyramid athletically and if a player IS strong enough and accurate enough to hit a booming TS serve, it can be very effective. But it all depends on the athlete and it's simply not viable en masse. And to the point about TS serves damaging the shoulder; assuming the server has good mechanics it really isn't much of an issue. In the men's game, TS serves are much more common as they really need to pressure the receiving team to avoid the men's hyper terminal attack if in system. The upside of topspin is higher serve velocities. The down side is it's just a matter of a few serves before you have a service error. In the men's game a strong server can have 2 errors per ace. 1 error per ace is like walk on water good. In the women's game, the offense and defense have a bit more balance, and you don't have to force your opponents off system at the expense of high servie error rate. A strong float can have a very low error rate and do enough to get you some 1 and 2 passes, which is enough to get into a rally. Regarding wear on the shoulder, I think it is just a given that outsides and TS servers put more strain on a shoulder...kind of like pitchers in baseball. I don't have stats to back it up, but hard to believe this isn't just a reality. I don't encourage either of my kids to develop a TS, neither do the majority of the club directors from my experience. You do see a monster TS here and there and they are effective...especially since the kids receiving them don't see many until 17s/18s. Iosia from Redondo has a monster TS. My older daughter got to play them a couple time this last high school season and it is a serious thing. That and her OOS setting got her a ride to Texas. |
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Post by n00b on Mar 27, 2020 21:44:00 GMT -5
This is why you don't see it as much in the college game, not because they didn't warm up correctly. Also, most college coaches are finding that an effective float serve is not only easier on the shoulder but easier to teach and more effective than the top spin. That's very situational. The reason TS serves aren't taught at younger ages in the women's game is because most girls can't hit them hard enough or consistently enough to make them more effective that a float serve. A weak TS serve is very easy to pass. That translates to college. The vast majority of the most effective serves in D1 (based on opponent good pass percentage) are jump floats. Of course, when you get to professional or international level, you see a higher percentage of TS serves because that's the top of the pyramid athletically and if a player IS strong enough and accurate enough to hit a booming TS serve, it can be very effective. But it all depends on the athlete and it's simply not viable en masse. And to the point about TS serves damaging the shoulder; assuming the server has good mechanics it really isn't much of an issue. Extremely off topic, but for D1 women’s volleyball Good Pass % is worse against topspin than jump floats. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2020 22:19:14 GMT -5
That's very situational. The reason TS serves aren't taught at younger ages in the women's game is because most girls can't hit them hard enough or consistently enough to make them more effective that a float serve. A weak TS serve is very easy to pass. That translates to college. The vast majority of the most effective serves in D1 (based on opponent good pass percentage) are jump floats. Of course, when you get to professional or international level, you see a higher percentage of TS serves because that's the top of the pyramid athletically and if a player IS strong enough and accurate enough to hit a booming TS serve, it can be very effective. But it all depends on the athlete and it's simply not viable en masse. And to the point about TS serves damaging the shoulder; assuming the server has good mechanics it really isn't much of an issue. Extremely off topic, but for D1 women’s volleyball Good Pass % is worse against topspin than jump floats. Eh, topic, shmopic. So long as it's not about the virus... I'm not doubting you at all (there's a lot of bad jump floats) but do you have the numbers on that? Likewise, got the numbers on the best TS servers in the country and their JF counterparts? |
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Post by socal3 on Mar 27, 2020 22:48:06 GMT -5
When you want to tout your own kid, you gotta be a little more discrete. Not that any of us do that or anything.
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Post by n00b on Mar 27, 2020 23:43:25 GMT -5
Extremely off topic, but for D1 women’s volleyball Good Pass % is worse against topspin than jump floats. Eh, topic, shmopic. So long as it's not about the virus... I'm not doubting you at all (there's a lot of bad jump floats) but do you have the numbers on that? Likewise, got the numbers on the best TS servers in the country and their JF counterparts? Yes. A LOT of copy and pasting from VolleyMetrics. Jump - 44.2% GP Jump Float - 47.6% GP Standing Float - 52.4% GP Depends on what you mean by best. If we're continuing with lowest GP% against (not accounting for competition)... 1. Mariena Hayden, UNLV, 22.4% -- Jump 2. Gabby Murray, Marist, 25.5% -- Jump Float 3. Sophia Cerino, Western Kentucky, 25.7% -- Jump 4. Vivian Donovan, Manhattan, 26.2% -- Jump Float 5. Regan Stiawalt, McNeese State, 26.3% -- Jump Float 6. Clare Mills, McNeese State, 26.5% -- Jump Float 7. Emily Gauthreaux, Nicholls State, 27.4% -- Hybrid 8. Lizzie Stephens, Ohio, 27.7% -- Jump Float 9. Dani Nay, Weber State, 28.5% -- Jump Float 10. Alexa Mamone, St Francis-PA, 28.5%, Jump Float If we want to control for level of competition, we can limit to the Power 5. Conf -- Jump GP% -- Jump Float GP% -- Standing Float GP% Pac-12 -- 49.4% -- 51.9% -- 61.5% Big Ten -- 44.0% -- 48.2% -- 52.7% Big 12 -- 41.8% -- 48.8% -- 54.3% SEC -- 47.0% -- 48.2% -- 57.0% ACC -- 45.2% -- 48.9% -- 53.3% 1. Madison Dill, Miami, 25.7% -- Jump Float 2. Dana Rettke, Wisconsin, 29.0% -- Jump Float 3. Mary Pertofsky, Michigan, 32.3% -- Jump 4. Brooke Anderson, Iowa State, 32.4% -- Jump Float 5. Katie Myers, Maryland, 32.9% -- Jump Float 6. Logan Eggleston, Texas, 33.4 -- Jump 7. Jacqueline Quade, Illinois, 34.4% -- Jump Float 8. Ari Tontai, North Carolina, 34.6% -- Jump FLoat 9. Ashlyn Fleming, Illinois, 34.8% -- Jump 10. Mac May, UCLA, 35.1% -- Jump Float That being said, less than 5% of all serves in those conferences are jump spin serves. And it's manual for me to check if it's a float or topspin so I can't simply find the best topspin servers. |
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Post by mikasa01 on Mar 28, 2020 1:06:28 GMT -5
Actually, Logan Eggleston from Texas has a hybrid serve. So does Mariena Hayden from UNLV. The two I mentioned before are the only ones who come to mind who do a true topspin serve, which are Paige Jones of Michigan and Jonni Parker of Penn State.
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Post by Maui’s Hook on Mar 28, 2020 1:27:15 GMT -5
The simplest way of understanding the spike serve vs jump float debate as it pertains to the Women’s game is velocity as @bigwestfan2 alluded to. I remember hearing a while back that 55 mph was a minimum for women’s spike servers to be difficult to pass. Since a ball with spin can give away its flight path, you beat passers with the speed of a spike serve. Given that many female junior athletes just dont have that kind of velocity, would give reason as to why there arent more spike servers in the women’s game at a higher level, it is that simple.
And woth some simple math, using 60ft as the serving distance, we can conclude that a ball served from 2 feet behind the servoce line could land in the court. The reaction time of that event is equivalent to
As far as the men’s game goes, many college coaches shoot for an 80% in play percentage from their spike servers. The change from side out to rally scoring can support some of the efficiency standards that some coaches hold their players to as well.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 2:03:58 GMT -5
Eh, topic, shmopic. So long as it's not about the virus... I'm not doubting you at all (there's a lot of bad jump floats) but do you have the numbers on that? Likewise, got the numbers on the best TS servers in the country and their JF counterparts? Yes. A LOT of copy and pasting from VolleyMetrics. Jump - 44.2% GP Jump Float - 47.6% GP Standing Float - 52.4% GP Depends on what you mean by best. If we're continuing with lowest GP% against (not accounting for competition)... 1. Mariena Hayden, UNLV, 22.4% -- Jump 2. Gabby Murray, Marist, 25.5% -- Jump Float 3. Sophia Cerino, Western Kentucky, 25.7% -- Jump 4. Vivian Donovan, Manhattan, 26.2% -- Jump Float 5. Regan Stiawalt, McNeese State, 26.3% -- Jump Float 6. Clare Mills, McNeese State, 26.5% -- Jump Float 7. Emily Gauthreaux, Nicholls State, 27.4% -- Hybrid 8. Lizzie Stephens, Ohio, 27.7% -- Jump Float 9. Dani Nay, Weber State, 28.5% -- Jump Float 10. Alexa Mamone, St Francis-PA, 28.5%, Jump Float If we want to control for level of competition, we can limit to the Power 5. Conf -- Jump GP% -- Jump Float GP% -- Standing Float GP% Pac-12 -- 49.4% -- 51.9% -- 61.5% Big Ten -- 44.0% -- 48.2% -- 52.7% Big 12 -- 41.8% -- 48.8% -- 54.3% SEC -- 47.0% -- 48.2% -- 57.0% ACC -- 45.2% -- 48.9% -- 53.3% 1. Madison Dill, Miami, 25.7% -- Jump Float 2. Dana Rettke, Wisconsin, 29.0% -- Jump Float 3. Mary Pertofsky, Michigan, 32.3% -- Jump 4. Brooke Anderson, Iowa State, 32.4% -- Jump Float 5. Katie Myers, Maryland, 32.9% -- Jump Float 6. Logan Eggleston, Texas, 33.4 -- Jump 7. Jacqueline Quade, Illinois, 34.4% -- Jump Float 8. Ari Tontai, North Carolina, 34.6% -- Jump FLoat 9. Ashlyn Fleming, Illinois, 34.8% -- Jump 10. Mac May, UCLA, 35.1% -- Jump Float That being said, less than 5% of all serves in those conferences are jump spin serves. And it's manual for me to check if it's a float or topspin so I can't simply find the best topspin servers. Thank you, I might be the only person here who appreciates it but I found it interesting. The small sample size of TS serves makes it difficult to say for certain but I'd wager the reason TS serves have a lower GP% overall is because the relative skill and physical strength required to do a good one means the skill level of those TS servers is higher than that of the average SA, even at the D1 level. The other thing I want to point out is that among the top D1 P5 servers, a majority of the best results (listed above) still come from a JF serve. That's because, as Maui’s Hook articulates above, a TS serve is fundamentally about velocity. In terms of serve receive, once you get a feel for it, however fast it is, it is at least fairly consistent. JF serves on the other hand have a degree of unpredictability which can cause a ball to deviate on even the best passers in D1, right when they thought they were about to pass a dime. Obviously at the international level you hit the peak of athleticism, but for vast majority of D1 players that kind of power is unattainable. As such, it's not so much that JF is easier to coach. It's that it requires less athleticism to do and can render results that are just as good and in some cases, better. There will always be a place in the game for a big TS serve but it's a bit like a QB who can launch the ball 80 yards... It's a nice weapon to have but if you don't have it, don't sweat it; work on that float! Just ask Dana Rettke. |
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