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Post by sisyphus on Apr 5, 2019 8:22:16 GMT -5
More questions: 1. Let’s say this foreign student was unable to get her paperwork done on time and couldn’t register for classes for the fall semester. Would she be able to practice with the team in the fall? Obviously, she’s not a student because she couldn’t register in time so she would be like a volunteer, I guess? 2. If this same foreign student gets her paperwork done before the spring 2020 semester, would she then be on scholarship for the spring 2020 semester and her clock starts as soon as she enrolls for classes? One benefit to starting in the spring is that she could play beach (on indoor scholarship) or get in some spring training and get some classes out of the way. 3. For q#2 above, would it be better if she enrolled in the fall 2020 instead? I don't believe she can practice with the team if she is not a student.
She could do #2 as long as the school has an open scholarship for the spring. Since volleyball is a fall sport, no disadvantage in remaining eligibility enrolling in the spring vs. the fall.
1. I agree here that she can't participate if she is not a full time student. Using her as a volunteer (coach?) is an interesting twist and I have no idea how or if that could work/be legal. 2. I agree again that, assuming an open scholarship, she could begin receiving aid as soon as she is a full time student. Her clock would start that semester but it wouldn't be noticed in a Fall sport since she would still have four Falls to compete. I believe that Wolfgang is correct that she would be able to compete in Beach Volleyball that Spring, train with the indoor team, and take a full load of classes. 3. I think that enrolling Spring vs. Fall comes down to personal choice and the desires of the program that she goes to. We've seen PSAs graduate early in order to enroll in the Spring semester so that they could begin training and taking classes at the university, which is often seen as an advantage for the (now) S-A, since she would have a Spring semester to acclimate without being in season. But if there is no scholarship available, that complicates decisions, since the PSA would have to decide if they should pay for that semester rather than wait for a scholarship to become available.
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Post by stevehorn on Apr 5, 2019 10:36:02 GMT -5
I don't believe she can practice with the team if she is not a student.
She could do #2 as long as the school has an open scholarship for the spring. Since volleyball is a fall sport, no disadvantage in remaining eligibility enrolling in the spring vs. the fall.
1. I agree here that she can't participate if she is not a full time student. Using her as a volunteer (coach?) is an interesting twist and I have no idea how or if that could work/be legal. 2. I agree again that, assuming an open scholarship, she could begin receiving aid as soon as she is a full time student. Her clock would start that semester but it wouldn't be noticed in a Fall sport since she would still have four Falls to compete. I believe that Wolfgang is correct that she would be able to compete in Beach Volleyball that Spring, train with the indoor team, and take a full load of classes. 3. I think that enrolling Spring vs. Fall comes down to personal choice and the desires of the program that she goes to. We've seen PSAs graduate early in order to enroll in the Spring semester so that they could begin training and taking classes at the university, which is often seen as an advantage for the (now) S-A, since she would have a Spring semester to acclimate without being in season. But if there is no scholarship available, that complicates decisions, since the PSA would have to decide if they should pay for that semester rather than wait for a scholarship to become available. 1. I would think that participating in a practice (organized practice with coaches) prior to enrolling in school would be some sort of NCAA violation. If not, I would think you would see this happening frequently. Also to accomplish the OP's scenario, the recruit would have to pay their own living and/or travel expenses to be close enough to participate in practices. So the scenario is most times not practical either. Edit to add: Now I'm assuming we're talking about the recruit actively participating in the practice. Now if we're talking about the recruit just watching, she certainly could do that to some extent. Don't know if she could participate in "film" study reviews or other non-physical practice activities.
2. Also would still have 5 falls to play 4 seasons. If the athlete is planning on playing beach volleyball also, the clock on that sport would start the initial spring semester so that is likely the only significant eligibility impact on the spring/fall enrollment decision.
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Post by Not Me on Apr 5, 2019 12:13:25 GMT -5
More questions: 1. Let’s say this foreign student was unable to get her paperwork done on time and couldn’t register for classes for the fall semester. Would she be able to practice with the team in the fall? Obviously, she’s not a student because she couldn’t register in time so she would be like a volunteer, I guess? 2. If this same foreign student gets her paperwork done before the spring 2020 semester, would she then be on scholarship for the spring 2020 semester and her clock starts as soon as she enrolls for classes? One benefit to starting in the spring is that she could play beach (on indoor scholarship) or get in some spring training and get some classes out of the way. 3. For q#2 above, would it be better if she enrolled in the fall 2020 instead? As I recall, a coach got sanctioned by the NCAA for what you describe in #1. Coach allowed a foreign player m, not registered at the school, to practice with the team
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Post by stevehorn on Apr 5, 2019 12:22:31 GMT -5
More questions: 1. Let’s say this foreign student was unable to get her paperwork done on time and couldn’t register for classes for the fall semester. Would she be able to practice with the team in the fall? Obviously, she’s not a student because she couldn’t register in time so she would be like a volunteer, I guess? 2. If this same foreign student gets her paperwork done before the spring 2020 semester, would she then be on scholarship for the spring 2020 semester and her clock starts as soon as she enrolls for classes? One benefit to starting in the spring is that she could play beach (on indoor scholarship) or get in some spring training and get some classes out of the way. 3. For q#2 above, would it be better if she enrolled in the fall 2020 instead? As I recall, a coach got sanctioned by the NCAA for what you describe in #1. Coach allowed a foreign player m, not registered at the school, to practice with the team Not surprising, especially if the recruit has not signed a LOI because it almost certainly would be considered a tryout. I think the rules are a bit looser if the recruit has signed a LOI, but don't think there is any scenario where they could participate in any type of formal practice until they are considered an enrolled student or within the window of preseason practices.
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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 5, 2019 12:32:27 GMT -5
More questions: 1. Let’s say this foreign student was unable to get her paperwork done on time and couldn’t register for classes for the fall semester. Would she be able to practice with the team in the fall? Obviously, she’s not a student because she couldn’t register in time so she would be like a volunteer, I guess? 2. If this same foreign student gets her paperwork done before the spring 2020 semester, would she then be on scholarship for the spring 2020 semester and her clock starts as soon as she enrolls for classes? One benefit to starting in the spring is that she could play beach (on indoor scholarship) or get in some spring training and get some classes out of the way. 3. For q#2 above, would it be better if she enrolled in the fall 2020 instead? As I recall, a coach got sanctioned by the NCAA for what you describe in #1. Coach allowed a foreign player m, not registered at the school, to practice with the team Well, I'm not a coach but if I were, I'd always check with the NCAA compliance officer. Also, I'd be a bad coach.
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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 5, 2019 13:30:31 GMT -5
1. Whether international or not, if you come in with, say, 12 credits of college credit (e.g., AP, college courses), do you still have to register for a full load (12 credits vs. part-time load) to be eligible for a scholarship and to participate in team activities (e.g., practice, matches)? (I'll assume the answer is "yes.")
2. Similar to Q#1, if your cumulative credits far exceed that needed to be on course to graduate (e.g., you're a second year student-athlete but you have enough credits to be considered a junior), do you still have to register for a full load of courses to be eligible for a scholarship and participate in team activities? (I'll assume the answer is "yes.)
3. If you've already accumulated more credits than necessary to graduate, do you still need to register for classes to participate in team activities? For example, can you play beach vb in the spring without registering for classes if you've already "graduated" in the fall of the previous year? (I'll assume the answer is "yes.")
4. For Q#3 above, can you just take a token number of classes (i.e., nothing to do with major, pass/fail, audit) just to be eligible for a scholarship and to participate in team activities?
5. Why have I heard of student-athletes taking a "lighter" load in the competition semester (fall) and a "tougher" load in the non-competition semester (spring)? (All answers in the form of "Gee, Wolfgang, I don't know why you've head that" will not be permitted.)
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Post by n00b on Apr 5, 2019 13:45:36 GMT -5
To be eligible for practice and competition, the SA must be enrolled in a minimum of 12 hours of classes. The only exception is if it's the athlete's last semester before graduation, then I think the minimum is 6.
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Post by stevehorn on Apr 5, 2019 15:50:39 GMT -5
1. Whether international or not, if you come in with, say, 12 credits of college credit (e.g., AP, college courses), do you still have to register for a full load (12 credits vs. part-time load) to be eligible for a scholarship and to participate in team activities (e.g., practice, matches)? (I'll assume the answer is "yes.") 2. Similar to Q#1, if your cumulative credits far exceed that needed to be on course to graduate (e.g., you're a second year student-athlete but you have enough credits to be considered a junior), do you still have to register for a full load of courses to be eligible for a scholarship and participate in team activities? (I'll assume the answer is "yes.) 3. If you've already accumulated more credits than necessary to graduate, do you still need to register for classes to participate in team activities? For example, can you play beach vb in the spring without registering for classes if you've already "graduated" in the fall of the previous year? (I'll assume the answer is "yes.") 4. For Q#3 above, can you just take a token number of classes (i.e., nothing to do with major, pass/fail, audit) just to be eligible for a scholarship and to participate in team activities? 5. Why have I heard of student-athletes taking a "lighter" load in the competition semester (fall) and a "tougher" load in the non-competition semester (spring)? (All answers in the form of "Gee, Wolfgang, I don't know why you've head that" will not be permitted.) 1. Still must be a full time student. 2-4. Athlete is only allowed to take less than a full-time load in the last semester before graduation as long as they are taking every course needed to fulfill graduation requirements. Not sure the exact rules if the athlete has satisfied all graduation requirements but still needs to go to school for one more semester to finish their athletic eligibility. I believe they can just take a course so that they are enrolled as a student and that is sufficient. 5. I believe the "lighter load" you are referencing is that they take the minimum hours to be full-time and then take more than the minimum in the other semester. Must be at least full-time in each semester.
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Post by stevehorn on Apr 5, 2019 15:54:46 GMT -5
To be eligible for practice and competition, the SA must be enrolled in a minimum of 12 hours of classes. The only exception is if it's the athlete's last semester before graduation, then I think the minimum is 6. To be technical, the SA must be enrolled in the minimum hours required by their institution to be full-time. However a 12 hour minimum seems to be almost universal. In the last semester, NCAA manual reads as if one class is the minimum though they must be taking all classes necessary to fulfill graduation requirements so the practical minimum varies by situation.
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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 5, 2019 16:20:06 GMT -5
How are mixed-academic/athletic scholarships treated?
Let's say an endowment was created and its terms provided for full tuition/books/fees (something equivalent to a "full scholarship") for any member of the volleyball team so long as their cumulative GPA=3.0.
Will this be treated as an academic scholarship? If so, it shouldn't count toward the 12 NCAA allowed max. But given that only volleyball players can earn it, it's hard to treat it as an academic scholarship.
If this is treated as an athletic scholarship, how can there be a GPA minimum?
Is this one of those cases where, if any volleyball player satisfied the criteria, it would be treated as an athletic scholarship?
I would assume that the donor and whoever works in the office that works on endowments (e.g., Gift Planning) will confer with NCAA compliance officers to craft a more workable language, such as getting rid of the GPA requirement. If they craft the language such that the GPA minimum stays, I doubt they'll allow the "volleyball players only" criteria in the endowment agreement. They would simply make this an academic scholarship open to all. But then, the donor might be unhappy because he/she might really want to support only volleyball players.
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Post by sisyphus on Apr 5, 2019 17:26:50 GMT -5
How are mixed-academic/athletic scholarships treated? Let's say an endowment was created and its terms provided for full tuition/books/fees (something equivalent to a "full scholarship") for any member of the volleyball team so long as their cumulative GPA=3.0. Will this be treated as an academic scholarship? If so, it shouldn't count toward the 12 NCAA allowed max. But given that only volleyball players can earn it, it's hard to treat it as an academic scholarship. If this is treated as an athletic scholarship, how can there be a GPA minimum? Is this one of those cases where, if any volleyball player satisfied the criteria, it would be treated as an athletic scholarship? I would assume that the donor and whoever works in the office that works on endowments (e.g., Gift Planning) will confer with NCAA compliance officers to craft a more workable language, such as getting rid of the GPA requirement. If they craft the language such that the GPA minimum stays, I doubt they'll allow the "volleyball players only" criteria in the endowment agreement. They would simply make this an academic scholarship open to all. But then, the donor might be unhappy because he/she might really want to support only volleyball players. The scenario you describe above can't be done in Division I women's volleyball but could be done in Division I men's volleyball or Division II women's volleyball. Division I WVB is a headcount sport so anyone who receives a dime of athletic aid is considered a counter towards the 12 you describe. The endowment you describe would be considered athletic aid because it is only available to an athlete. Division I MVB and Division II WVB are equivalency sports so teams in those sports can spend as much money as they have on as many athletes as they want to a limit. In MVB that limit is equivalent to 4.5 "full scholarships" and in WVB that limit is 8.0 "full scholarships". The endowment you describe could be provided by an outside source and that benefactor is welcome to place any criteria on it that they choose. But the aid must be given to the institution and then the institution gives it to the athlete. The NCAA will classify it as athletic aid because "A student-athlete who is receiving institutional financial aid based in any degree upon athletics ability [in this case, the recipient must be a member of the volleyball team] shall be a counter and included in the maximum awards limitations set forth"
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Post by stevehorn on Apr 5, 2019 18:56:50 GMT -5
How are mixed-academic/athletic scholarships treated? Let's say an endowment was created and its terms provided for full tuition/books/fees (something equivalent to a "full scholarship") for any member of the volleyball team so long as their cumulative GPA=3.0. Will this be treated as an academic scholarship? If so, it shouldn't count toward the 12 NCAA allowed max. But given that only volleyball players can earn it, it's hard to treat it as an academic scholarship. If this is treated as an athletic scholarship, how can there be a GPA minimum? Is this one of those cases where, if any volleyball player satisfied the criteria, it would be treated as an athletic scholarship? I would assume that the donor and whoever works in the office that works on endowments (e.g., Gift Planning) will confer with NCAA compliance officers to craft a more workable language, such as getting rid of the GPA requirement. If they craft the language such that the GPA minimum stays, I doubt they'll allow the "volleyball players only" criteria in the endowment agreement. They would simply make this an academic scholarship open to all. But then, the donor might be unhappy because he/she might really want to support only volleyball players. Any money given to a player under your example endowment would be considered an athletic scholarship because part of it is based on athletic ability. It could technically be used to fund part or even all existing volleyball scholarships, but not above the NCAA limit of 12 players on scholarship or to give a total amount of financial aid above the NCAA maximum (cost of attendance. So the answer is no to the ability for some rich alum to fund an endowment that allows Hawaii to have 20 volleyball scholarship players. If it were to possible to create endowments of this or similar type to fund extra athletic scholarships for the school, I can guarantee you that the University of Texas would have at least 200 football players on scholarship.
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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 5, 2019 19:18:47 GMT -5
I would like to emphasize that I'm only asking questions as a fan.
I'm not a booster of the Univ of Hawaii. I have NEVER given them a dime. I have never attended the Univ of Hawaii. I do not currently or have I ever worked for the Univ of Hawaii. I have no connection whatsoever with the Univ of Hawaii. No one in my family even attended the school. I can't really name anyone in the UH athletic department. I can't even name the AD. I don't know who the NCAA compliance officers are.
I have no inside information. I've never communicated in any way, shape, or form to any of the Hawaii coaches, players, or anyone in the UH athletic office. Similarly, I have never communicated in any way, shape, or form to any current or future recruits of UH. Like, I don't even know what Kate Lang looks like.
I know no one.
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Post by notwvb on Apr 5, 2019 22:28:39 GMT -5
I would like to emphasize that I'm only asking questions as a fan. I'm not a booster of the Univ of Hawaii. I have NEVER given them a dime. I have never attended the Univ of Hawaii. I do not currently or have I ever worked for the Univ of Hawaii. I have no connection whatsoever with the Univ of Hawaii. No one in my family even attended the school. I can't really name anyone in the UH athletic department. I can't even name the AD. I don't know who the NCAA compliance officers are. I have no inside information. I've never communicated in any way, shape, or form to any of the Hawaii coaches, players, or anyone in the UH athletic office. Similarly, I have never communicated in any way, shape, or form to any current or future recruits of UH. Like, I don't even know what Kate Lang looks like. I know no one. It's okay. You're still famous for doing great damage to a plate of eggs and bacon.
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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 18, 2019 2:40:57 GMT -5
So, let's say it's late May/early June and all the paperwork and NLIs have been squared away and the student-athlete-to-be has just graduated from high school.
How early can this student-athlete-to-be register for classes? Can they register for summer classes in, say, late May or early June? If so, can they be on scholarship?
Generally speaking, how does the scholarship money work in the summers? If they take classes, are they funded via their full scholarship? Or would that have to be covered some other way?
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