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Post by stevehorn on Dec 20, 2023 15:54:48 GMT -5
I'll post some of what I know or believe. Most of this comes from following football recruiting and transfers, but likely is not much different in volleyball. You have the first step basically correct. Don't know the actual technicalities, but a player must make a formal request to the compliance administration at their school to have their name and information entered into the portal. It is entered into a "portal" database that is available to all athletic department personnel that have clearance to access the portal database. In practical terms, a player in the portal could be contacted by any coach or staff member in that sport. Only coaches can make off-campus visits similar to high school recruiting. The intent of the portal is that there is no contact between a player and another school before the player's name is entered in the portal. In real terms, there is plenty of contact before the name is entered. Unless the parties are stupid, this is not contact directly between the player and a coaching staff. On the player's side, typically it would be the types of parties you mentioned - parents, high school coach, club coach, maybe NIL agent or rep, etc. On the school side, the communication will likely be someone on the recruiting staff and not any of the coaches. Most likely the initial contact will come from the player's side and not the school's. Almost any contact by the school would be considered tampering though don't be naive and think this doesn't happen. Though likely any contact initiated by the school will go a third party, not the player. These days it seems like lots of players reach out to existing players on the team to gauge interest. Zoe said she reached out to Logan to see if JE would be interested. During the tournament (I think the Nebraska-Pitt match) they also mentioned something about Beason reaching out to someone on the Nebraska team she knew through NTDP I would expect there is a lot of player to player contact to at minimum, ask about the team, coaches, school, etc. Beyond that, it gets a bit nuanced. In your Zoe/Logan example, it should be OK for Logan to give her opinion on whether there is interest or as answer to any other question. My understanding is that Logan couldn't act as a "go-between" to relay communication between Zoe and JE. In other words, I believe it would be illegal contact for Logan to go ask JE the interest question and then relay the answer back to Zoe. However does it happen? I'm sure it does quite frequently. Will anybody admit it? Only the stupid ones or those that haven't been warned to keep their mouth shut.
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Post by biodogtexas on Dec 20, 2023 19:00:28 GMT -5
These days it seems like lots of players reach out to existing players on the team to gauge interest. Zoe said she reached out to Logan to see if JE would be interested. During the tournament (I think the Nebraska-Pitt match) they also mentioned something about Beason reaching out to someone on the Nebraska team she knew through NTDP I would expect there is a lot of player to player contact to at minimum, ask about the team, coaches, school, etc. Beyond that, it gets a bit nuanced. In your Zoe/Logan example, it should be OK for Logan to give her opinion on whether there is interest or as answer to any other question. My understanding is that Logan couldn't act as a "go-between" to relay communication between Zoe and JE. In other words, I believe it would be illegal contact for Logan to go ask JE the interest question and then relay the answer back to Zoe. However does it happen? I'm sure it does quite frequently. Will anybody admit it? Only the stupid ones or those that haven't been warned to keep their mouth shut. ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/compliance/rrs/2021/presentations/aw/Association-Wide_Enforcement--Transfers_Tampering_and_Trends.pdfRules are rules, but how in the world does anyone know when you break them? The rule is that no one at the university is allowed to contact an athlete at another school. That doesn't really apply to players talking to players.
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Post by horns1 on Dec 20, 2023 20:14:41 GMT -5
I'm thinking she has two - spring 24 and spring 25. Since she has only played one season of NCAA beach volleyball, she should be considered a redshirt senior this spring. Then she should have a COVID season to play in the spring of 25. She's been in college 4.5 years and did not redshirt (indoor VB). She used her super-senior indoor season this Fall. So, prior to COVID, the rule was 5 years to play 4 (full) seasons which included one redshirt season. If that's accurate, she has one semester remaining to play a Spring sport Don't think she gets a COVID season for beach since she didn't miss a beach (COVID) season at Texas since we didn't have that athletic program during pandemic.
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Post by stevehorn on Dec 20, 2023 20:36:21 GMT -5
I'm thinking she has two - spring 24 and spring 25. Since she has only played one season of NCAA beach volleyball, she should be considered a redshirt senior this spring. Then she should have a COVID season to play in the spring of 25. She's been in college 4.5 years and did not redshirt (indoor VB). She used her super-senior indoor season this Fall. So, prior to COVID, the rule was 5 years to play 4 (full) seasons which included one redshirt season. If that's accurate, she has one semester remaining to play a Spring sport Don't think she gets a COVID season for beach since she didn't miss a beach (COVID) season at Texas since we didn't have that athletic program during pandemic. Your second paragraph is the key. I don't know if they put that restriction on it or not. I'm just going with the assumption that there isn't that restriction. I guess we'll see if she is listed on their roster next year.
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Post by biodogtexas on Dec 20, 2023 20:43:11 GMT -5
I'm thinking she has two - spring 24 and spring 25. Since she has only played one season of NCAA beach volleyball, she should be considered a redshirt senior this spring. Then she should have a COVID season to play in the spring of 25. She's been in college 4.5 years and did not redshirt (indoor VB). She used her super-senior indoor season this Fall. So, prior to COVID, the rule was 5 years to play 4 (full) seasons which included one redshirt season. If that's accurate, she has one semester remaining to play a Spring sport Don't think she gets a COVID season for beach since she didn't miss a beach (COVID) season at Texas since we didn't have that athletic program during pandemic. That's not quite how it works. they don't count seasons or redshirts like that.
Molly enrolled in summer of 2019, that started her 5-year clock. She was on campus during covid, so her 5-year clock turned into a 6-year clock. That means she is eligible to compete and receive aid until June of 2025, 6 years from the date of her first enrollment. During that 6-year span, she can compete in up to 4 seasons of competition per sport. The "redshirt" is just nomenclature for not competing in a season. She just completed her 4th season of volleyball (since the 2020 season is not counted) and no longer has eligibility to play indoor volleyball, accordingly. However, that does not end her 6-year clock. She can still play any other sport throughout the rest of her 6-year clock. That means she can compete in any sport in 2024 or the spring of 25, giving her 2 possible beach seasons.
Her Beach Eligibility is separate from her Indoor eligibility. From a beach perspective, think of it like this: She redshirted in 2019-20, 2020-21 did not count because of Covid, she did not play 2021-22 for her redshirt freshman season, she played as a redshirt sophomore this past year in '23, this coming year will be her redshirt junior year in '24, and the spring of '25 will be her redshirt senior year. Not being an early enrollee was key here. If she had enrolled in january, she wouldn't be able to compete in '25. So waiting for the summer gave her an extra potential season of beach volleyball.
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Post by slxpress on Dec 20, 2023 20:46:01 GMT -5
She's been in college 4.5 years and did not redshirt (indoor VB). She used her super-senior indoor season this Fall. So, prior to COVID, the rule was 5 years to play 4 (full) seasons which included one redshirt season. If that's accurate, she has one semester remaining to play a Spring sport Don't think she gets a COVID season for beach since she didn't miss a beach (COVID) season at Texas since we didn't have that athletic program during pandemic. That's not quite how it works. they don't count seasons or redshirts like that.
Molly enrolled in summer of 2019, that started her 5-year clock. She was on campus during covid, so her 5-year clock turned into a 6-year clock. That means she is eligible to compete and receive aid until June of 2025, 6 years from the date of her first enrollment. During that 6-year span, she can compete in up to 4 seasons of competition per sport. The "redshirt" is just nomenclature for not competing in a season. She just completed her 4th season of volleyball (since the 2020 season is not counted) and no longer has eligibility to play indoor volleyball, accordingly. However, that does not end her 6-year clock. She can still play any other sport throughout the rest of her 6-year clock. That means she can compete in any sport in 2024 or the spring of 25, giving her 2 possible beach seasons.
Her Beach Eligibility is separate from her Indoor eligibility. From a beach perspective, think of it like this: She redshirted in 2019-20, 2020-21 did not count because of Covid, she did not play 2021-22 for her redshirt freshman season, she played as a redshirt sophomore this past year in '23, this coming year will be her redshirt junior year in '24, and the spring of '25 will be her redshirt senior year. Not being an early enrollee was key here. If she had enrolled in january, she wouldn't be able to compete in '25. So waiting for the summer gave her an extra potential season of beach volleyball.
Where have you been all my life? Well done.
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Post by mibadger on Dec 20, 2023 22:29:38 GMT -5
I would expect there is a lot of player to player contact to at minimum, ask about the team, coaches, school, etc. Beyond that, it gets a bit nuanced. In your Zoe/Logan example, it should be OK for Logan to give her opinion on whether there is interest or as answer to any other question. My understanding is that Logan couldn't act as a "go-between" to relay communication between Zoe and JE. In other words, I believe it would be illegal contact for Logan to go ask JE the interest question and then relay the answer back to Zoe. However does it happen? I'm sure it does quite frequently. Will anybody admit it? Only the stupid ones or those that haven't been warned to keep their mouth shut. ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/compliance/rrs/2021/presentations/aw/Association-Wide_Enforcement--Transfers_Tampering_and_Trends.pdfRules are rules, but how in the world does anyone know when you break them? The rule is that no one at the university is allowed to contact an athlete at another school. That doesn't really apply to players talking to players. I’ve wondered about this as well. I guess if player to coach contact is not allowed there are lots of ways around that. Could be by talking to other players or even reaching out to your club or hs coach and maybe asking them to gauge interest for you with other programs. Whatever the scenario, there has to be lots of ways to get answers before you actually enter the portal.
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Post by nederlander on Dec 20, 2023 23:25:46 GMT -5
I’m excited about the Lauenstein transfer. I love OH that can also really bring it from the service line. That’s such an asset, obviously. I still wonder if that pushes Byrd to playing some MB to start out? Guess that also depends if Coach Elliott brings in a transfer at MB. Whatever else happens, the team sure has plenty of options at the pins in 2024.
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Post by biodogtexas on Dec 21, 2023 0:29:06 GMT -5
I’ve wondered about this as well. I guess if player to coach contact is not allowed there are lots of ways around that. Could be by talking to other players or even reaching out to your club or hs coach and maybe asking them to gauge interest for you with other programs. Whatever the scenario, there has to be lots of ways to get answers before you actually enter the portal. Any method of communication is prohibited, direct or indirect, no matter how many people it goes through. players are allowed to talk to players all they want. But if a player is communicating on behalf of a coach, it's prohibited. Contacting a club coach to pass word to a player is prohibited. Any line of communication, no matter how convoluted, that includes a coach and a player at another school is prohibited.
However, how in the world is anybody ever possibly going to enforce that rule? If as tree falls in the middle of the piney woods of east Texas, who's going to hear it all the way over in Austin? Yeah, it happened, but no one's there to see it and nobody particularly cares enough to go looking. It's like speeding. Pretty much everyone is doing it, to some extent, because the only thing stopping you is your own honor code. The only question is how egregiously you do it and if you do it just so happen to get caught.
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Post by slxpress on Dec 21, 2023 0:39:36 GMT -5
I’ve wondered about this as well. I guess if player to coach contact is not allowed there are lots of ways around that. Could be by talking to other players or even reaching out to your club or hs coach and maybe asking them to gauge interest for you with other programs. Whatever the scenario, there has to be lots of ways to get answers before you actually enter the portal. Any method of communication is prohibited, direct or indirect, no matter how many people it goes through. players are allowed to talk to players all they want. But if a player is communicating on behalf of a coach, it's prohibited. Contacting a club coach to pass word to a player is prohibited. Any line of communication, no matter how convoluted, that includes a coach and a player at another school is prohibited.
However, how in the world is anybody ever possibly going to enforce that rule? If as tree falls in the middle of the piney woods of east Texas, who's going to hear it all the way over in Austin? Yeah, it happened, but no one's there to see it and nobody particularly cares enough to go looking. It's like speeding. Pretty much everyone is doing it, to some extent, because the only thing stopping you is your own honor code. The only question is how egregiously you do it and if you do it just so happen to get caught.
My favorite is paying for unofficial visits. In football that's been a thing since the late 2000s when people would put together a van full of top prospects and tour around the country getting paid to bring them to different campuses, and it's simply blown out of control since then. If you're not paying for multiple visits for players - for orientations, for Friday Night Light type events, for visits to camps, barbeques, various home games - you're simply not in the game for the best prospects any more. The NCAA has so little they can actually enforce. Their big one remains practicing when you're not supposed to be, and recruiting during quiet periods. Outside of that there's very little they truly try to enforce any more. They're certainly not enforcing anything involving tampering. At some point someone may be upset and turn a coach/program in, but until that happens and there's compelling evidence of it, there's no way we're going to see anything done. Look at the NCAA trying to crack down on the whole one transfer rule. They're already in a court battle about it, and they've agreed not to enforce it until the final ruling comes down, although they've said they're going to enforce it retroactively if they win. We're in a an unsustainable model right now for collegiate athletics. Don't know when or how it's going to change, or what form it will take, but like they said in the movie Coctail, "The party doesn't end until it ends badly."
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Post by mibadger on Dec 21, 2023 0:45:46 GMT -5
I’ve wondered about this as well. I guess if player to coach contact is not allowed there are lots of ways around that. Could be by talking to other players or even reaching out to your club or hs coach and maybe asking them to gauge interest for you with other programs. Whatever the scenario, there has to be lots of ways to get answers before you actually enter the portal. Any method of communication is prohibited, direct or indirect, no matter how many people it goes through. players are allowed to talk to players all they want. But if a player is communicating on behalf of a coach, it's prohibited. Contacting a club coach to pass word to a player is prohibited. Any line of communication, no matter how convoluted, that includes a coach and a player at another school is prohibited.
However, how in the world is anybody ever possibly going to enforce that rule? If as tree falls in the middle of the piney woods of east Texas, who's going to hear it all the way over in Austin? Yeah, it happened, but no one's there to see it and nobody particularly cares enough to go looking. It's like speeding. Pretty much everyone is doing it, to some extent, because the only thing stopping you is your own honor code. The only question is how egregiously you do it and if you do it just so happen to get caught.
So basically everyone(coaches and players) has a buffer or intermediary and no one puts anything in text or email or in writing of any type. And nothing is inherently promised. Just something along the lines of , if this player becomes available we may be interested. The ncaa is so much fun. It’s like the mob with how they communicate.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2023 0:51:47 GMT -5
Any method of communication is prohibited, direct or indirect, no matter how many people it goes through. players are allowed to talk to players all they want. But if a player is communicating on behalf of a coach, it's prohibited. Contacting a club coach to pass word to a player is prohibited. Any line of communication, no matter how convoluted, that includes a coach and a player at another school is prohibited.
However, how in the world is anybody ever possibly going to enforce that rule? If as tree falls in the middle of the piney woods of east Texas, who's going to hear it all the way over in Austin? Yeah, it happened, but no one's there to see it and nobody particularly cares enough to go looking. It's like speeding. Pretty much everyone is doing it, to some extent, because the only thing stopping you is your own honor code. The only question is how egregiously you do it and if you do it just so happen to get caught.
So basically everyone(coaches and players) has a buffer or intermediary and no one puts anything in text or email or in writing of any type. And nothing is inherently promised. Just something along the lines of , if this player becomes available we may be interested. The ncaa is so much fun. It’s like the mob with how they communicate. I think this kind of stuff has always gone on in every sport. Everyone pushing the limits to see what they can get away with to gain some adv. I think the difference now is it’s become way more obvious when it use to try and be hidden better in past. For instance the whole Michigan football thing. There is zero chance they were the only school doing that. They just got caught. I would be willing to bet most the top programs with the money and means have done similar stuff
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Post by texannexile on Dec 21, 2023 12:19:46 GMT -5
Love this graphic... Pulling for Molly to get a third!!!
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Post by slxpress on Dec 21, 2023 13:02:17 GMT -5
So basically everyone(coaches and players) has a buffer or intermediary and no one puts anything in text or email or in writing of any type. And nothing is inherently promised. Just something along the lines of , if this player becomes available we may be interested. The ncaa is so much fun. It’s like the mob with how they communicate. I think this kind of stuff has always gone on in every sport. Everyone pushing the limits to see what they can get away with to gain some adv. I think the difference now is it’s become way more obvious when it use to try and be hidden better in past. For instance the whole Michigan football thing. There is zero chance they were the only school doing that. They just got caught. I would be willing to bet most the top programs with the money and means have done similar stuff I’m not sure what you mean by this. Yes, there has always been boundary pushing, but there have always been some programs setting the edge. There were always boosters supporting especially talented players and their families. The oil men of Brownwood were famous for giving jobs to parents of talented players which helped make Gordon Wood the winningest coach in Texas high school football. Plano decided to construct 9th/10th grade schools that fed into massive senior highs to maximize the number of teens thst would come out for football. Jim Tatum and Bud Wilkinson paid veterans returning from WWII to play for OU and set a record for the longest winning streak. OU, Oklahoma State both began paying players in Texas larger sums to come play for them, and then SMU and A&M began emulating them. There was always under the table recruiting in basketball, and then Sonny Vaccaro sent it into the stratosphere by establishing AAU shoe networks for Nike, then Reebok, then adidas, based on the massive financial importance of NBA endorsements as proven by Michael Jordan. Texas helped push the edge in commercializing college sports starting in the 80s and 90s and gathering steam afterwards to become a revenue generating juggernaut. Alabama was primarily responsible for ushering in the paid unofficial visits for football, and the uncommitable offer. I’ve never known Jim Harbaugh to be involved in under the table payments, but I do know he had a flagrant disregard for other recruiting rules. Michigan has long been known as a program that pushes the boundaries in stealing signs, to the point TCU used it against them in their playoff game. There’s now publicly documented proof of it. To say many programs do it to one degree or another is likely accurate. To dismiss what Michigan was doing as something everyone is doing seems like a rationalization to me. I will say for me personally trying to steal signs seems fair game to me, but it’s still against the rules. Poaching right now in football and basketball is widespread, and it’s not just colleges contacting players. It’s the other way around, too. NIL is huge business. I bet the NIL payroll for football and basketball at Texas right now is somewhere close to $20 million per year. I bet the volleyball payroll barely breaks $200k, and that’s still a gargantuan number for women’s volleyball outside of Nebraska, which dwarfs that. I think the main difference right now is that we’re on an unsustainable track, specifically in football. I don’t know where or when it ends, but it won’t be pretty. There will be a trickle down effect in volleyball, especially as more money and eyeballs are attracted to the sport, but I still believe poaching is a lot more limited than it is in other major college sports, even though it’s certainly happening.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2023 13:07:07 GMT -5
I think this kind of stuff has always gone on in every sport. Everyone pushing the limits to see what they can get away with to gain some adv. I think the difference now is it’s become way more obvious when it use to try and be hidden better in past. For instance the whole Michigan football thing. There is zero chance they were the only school doing that. They just got caught. I would be willing to bet most the top programs with the money and means have done similar stuff I’m not sure what you mean by this. Yes, there has always been boundary pushing, but there have always been some programs setting the edge. There were always boosters supporting especially talented players and their families. The oil men of Brownwood were famous for giving jobs to parents of talented players which helped make Gordon Wood the winningest coach in Texas high school football. Plano decided to construct 9th/10th grade schools that fed into massive senior highs to maximize the number of teens thst would come out for football. Jim Tatum and Bud Wilkinson paid veterans returning from WWII to play for OU and set a record for the longest winning streak. OU, Oklahoma State both began paying players in Texas larger sums to come play for them, and then SMU and A&M began emulating them. There was always under the table recruiting in basketball, and then Sonny Vaccaro sent it into the stratosphere by establishing AAU shoe networks for Nike, then Reebok, then adidas, based on the massive financial importance of NBA endorsements as proven by Michael Jordan. Texas helped push the edge in commercializing college sports starting in the 80s and 90s and gathering steam afterwards to become a revenue generating juggernaut. Alabama was primarily responsible for ushering in the paid unofficial visits for football, and the uncommitable offer. I’ve never known Jim Harbaugh to be involved in under the table payments, but I do know he had a flagrant disregard for other recruiting rules. Michigan has long been known as a program that pushes the boundaries in stealing signs, to the point TCU used it against them in their playoff game. There’s now publicly documented proof of it. To say many programs do it to one degree or another is likely accurate. To dismiss what Michigan was doing as something everyone is doing seems like a rationalization to me. I will say for me personally trying to steal signs seems fair game to me, but it’s still against the rules. Poaching right now in football and basketball is widespread, and it’s not just colleges contacting players. It’s the other way around, too. NIL is huge business. I bet the NIL payroll for football and basketball at Texas right now is somewhere close to $20 million per year. I bet the volleyball payroll barely breaks $200k, and that’s still a gargantuan number for women’s volleyball outside of Nebraska, which dwarfs that. I think the main difference right now is that we’re on an unsustainable track, specifically in football. I don’t know where or when it ends, but it won’t be pretty. There will be a trickle down effect in volleyball, especially as more money and eyeballs are attracted to the sport, but I still believe poaching is a lot more limited than it is in other major college sports, even though it’s certainly happening. This wasn’t specific to any team or even any individual sport. Just a generalization
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