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Post by n00b on Mar 30, 2020 11:32:30 GMT -5
A significant amount of STEM could be eliminated from higher ed with little-to-no effect on our work force.
I could not disagree more with this statement--unless you move the higher ed STEM education to high school, which is a different discussion. My field is Computer Science. About 3/4 of my undergrad classes were STEM, including an independent project where I worked with a professor. None of it was like anything I would have gotten as an intern, including the independent project (because most intern managers are not at all like professors). I've also worked both in academia and at companies large and small. Undergraduate education is generally focused on concepts that are valuable to students across multiple jobs and careers, intern jobs are generally about connecting those concepts to commerical applications. Training with specific tools and processes is part of both--but really a secondary aspect. While there are similarities between a good professor and a good manager, the differences are significant. In terms of "effect on our work force" you are thinking too short-term. One of the problems our workforce has is not being able to adjust as needs change. An important part of a good undergraduate education is helping people learn how to figure out what they really like (I mean, 60hrs/week like) and what they are really good at. Using job internships to do this is very inefficient for both students and companies. Agreed. You can’t learn the intricacies of organic chemistry by going and interning in a lab.
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Post by cindra on Mar 30, 2020 12:18:39 GMT -5
I could not disagree more with this statement--unless you move the higher ed STEM education to high school, which is a different discussion. My field is Computer Science. About 3/4 of my undergrad classes were STEM, including an independent project where I worked with a professor. None of it was like anything I would have gotten as an intern, including the independent project (because most intern managers are not at all like professors). I've also worked both in academia and at companies large and small. Undergraduate education is generally focused on concepts that are valuable to students across multiple jobs and careers, intern jobs are generally about connecting those concepts to commerical applications. Training with specific tools and processes is part of both--but really a secondary aspect. While there are similarities between a good professor and a good manager, the differences are significant. In terms of "effect on our work force" you are thinking too short-term. One of the problems our workforce has is not being able to adjust as needs change. An important part of a good undergraduate education is helping people learn how to figure out what they really like (I mean, 60hrs/week like) and what they are really good at. Using job internships to do this is very inefficient for both students and companies. Agreed. You can’t learn the intricacies of organic chemistry by going and interning in a lab. On the other hand, as someone who works in an ochem lab, you can't learn how to do lab work in a lab course. A balance is needed. The theoretical stuff is nice but learning how chromatography works doesn't mean you know how to run a column.
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Post by joetrinsey on Mar 30, 2020 12:50:13 GMT -5
A significant amount of STEM could be eliminated from higher ed with little-to-no effect on our work force.
I could not disagree more with this statement--unless you move the higher ed STEM education to high school, which is a different discussion. My field is Computer Science. About 3/4 of my undergrad classes were STEM, including an independent project where I worked with a professor. None of it was like anything I would have gotten as an intern, including the independent project (because most intern managers are not at all like professors). I've also worked both in academia and at companies large and small. Undergraduate education is generally focused on concepts that are valuable to students across multiple jobs and careers, intern jobs are generally about connecting those concepts to commerical applications. Training with specific tools and processes is part of both--but really a secondary aspect. While there are similarities between a good professor and a good manager, the differences are significant. In terms of "effect on our work force" you are thinking too short-term. One of the problems our workforce has is not being able to adjust as needs change. An important part of a good undergraduate education is helping people learn how to figure out what they really like (I mean, 60hrs/week like) and what they are really good at. Using job internships to do this is very inefficient for both students and companies.
Good perspective. Thanks for sharing that.
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Post by mikegarrison on Mar 30, 2020 12:50:54 GMT -5
You're an engineer correct? Replace your 4 years of paid undergrad with an unpaid internship and on the job training and would you be more prepared or less prepared for an engineering job at the age of 22? Less prepared.
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Post by BuckysHeat on Mar 30, 2020 12:54:32 GMT -5
Agreed. You can’t learn the intricacies of organic chemistry by going and interning in a lab. On the other hand, as someone who works in an ochem lab, you can't learn how to do lab work in a lab course. A balance is needed. The theoretical stuff is nice but learning how chromatography works doesn't mean you know how to run a column. I will be the first to defend 4 year colleges based on my life experiences. Finally went back to school in my late 30's after I had started a family, got my degree and it has opened up jobs that were forever closed to me before. the reason why I finally went and finished? I worked in the same type of lab as you did, had no experience, eventually made my way up from a lab tech doing extractions to the team leader for extractions and then moved up to chemist running a GC. Corporation buys us out, was let go because my not having a degree did not look good on their brochures of qualified personnel to give to customers. Could not find a job in the same field, couldn't even get an interview because no degree. I go to school for 3.5 years, get a degree and suddenly am swamped with offers even though I graduated in 2009 at the height of the recession. So yes, 4 year does matter but I also completely agree with what you have stated. School was easy for me because of my background, I had already done much of the work prior to entry into college and what I had learned by doing.
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Post by mikegarrison on Mar 30, 2020 12:55:35 GMT -5
In terms of "effect on our work force" you are thinking too short-term. One of the problems our workforce has is not being able to adjust as needs change. I got laid off from my first job after a year and a half. Damn good thing I wasn't relying on them to give me all the on-the-job-training that I needed to be an engineer. I got hired to my second job in part because of things I had learned in my first job, but in much larger part because of my school education.
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Post by staticb on Mar 30, 2020 13:37:18 GMT -5
A significant amount of STEM could be eliminated from higher ed with little-to-no effect on our work force. You're an engineer correct? Replace your 4 years of paid undergrad with an unpaid internship and on the job training and would you be more prepared or less prepared for an engineering job at the age of 22? Imagine a scenario (which might not be hard to do right now) in which we needed to double our healthcare workforce. We'd quickly realize (as armies have forever) that a short, intense training camp followed by on the job training with a steady escalation in responsibility can train some healthcare providers in a far shorter time than our current higher ed system.
I went to a normally competitive computer science program. I don't doubt that we could train up a smart 4 year kid to do the job just as well if not better than the colleges in terms of real world job preparation.
However--one of the problems is that there is fairly high number of people who get weeded out or decide that it isn't for them while in college. (A decent number of people see that there is good money in STEM and so decide they want to get into it when they aren't really interested or have the aptitude to do it) Businesses aren't going to want to waste their time weeding through the people who may not be cut out for the work.
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Post by jmax on Mar 30, 2020 13:42:01 GMT -5
On the other hand, as someone who works in an ochem lab, you can't learn how to do lab work in a lab course. A balance is needed. The theoretical stuff is nice but learning how chromatography works doesn't mean you know how to run a column. I will be the first to defend 4 year colleges based on my life experiences. Finally went back to school in my late 30's after I had started a family, got my degree and it has opened up jobs that were forever closed to me before. the reason why I finally went and finished? I worked in the same type of lab as you did, had no experience, eventually made my way up from a lab tech doing extractions to the team leader for extractions and then moved up to chemist running a GC. Corporation buys us out, was let go because my not having a degree did not look good on their brochures of qualified personnel to give to customers. Could not find a job in the same field, couldn't even get an interview because no degree. I go to school for 3.5 years, get a degree and suddenly am swamped with offers even though I graduated in 2009 at the height of the recession. So yes, 4 year does matter but I also completely agree with what you have stated. School was easy for me because of my background, I had already done much of the work prior to entry into college and what I had learned by doing. Funny, I view your story as evidence that college is overvalued in the workplace even if it was worth it for you as it was required for employment.
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Post by n00b on Mar 30, 2020 13:57:13 GMT -5
I will be the first to defend 4 year colleges based on my life experiences. Finally went back to school in my late 30's after I had started a family, got my degree and it has opened up jobs that were forever closed to me before. the reason why I finally went and finished? I worked in the same type of lab as you did, had no experience, eventually made my way up from a lab tech doing extractions to the team leader for extractions and then moved up to chemist running a GC. Corporation buys us out, was let go because my not having a degree did not look good on their brochures of qualified personnel to give to customers. Could not find a job in the same field, couldn't even get an interview because no degree. I go to school for 3.5 years, get a degree and suddenly am swamped with offers even though I graduated in 2009 at the height of the recession. So yes, 4 year does matter but I also completely agree with what you have stated. School was easy for me because of my background, I had already done much of the work prior to entry into college and what I had learned by doing. Funny, I view your story as evidence that college is overvalued in the workplace even if it was worth it for you as it was required for employment. But your view that education is overvalued doesn't change what the ACTUAL value is. Employers still care a LOT about it. Even to coach volleyball, I'm pretty sure an AD would be highly skeptical of a head coach hiring an assistant without a degree.
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Post by itsallrelative on Mar 30, 2020 14:30:56 GMT -5
You're an engineer correct? Replace your 4 years of paid undergrad with an unpaid internship and on the job training and would you be more prepared or less prepared for an engineering job at the age of 22? Less prepared. Much, Much, Much less prepared. Engineering degree teaches you how to problem-solve, on complex problems without obvious solutions. And exposes you to enough of the other engineering disciplines to know when something is reasonable or not.....IMHO.
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Post by Wolfgang on Mar 30, 2020 14:57:18 GMT -5
I have my own views on education (pro-STEM but not anti-non-STEM), but that's neither here nor there. All I know is that without art and poetry, I would not have had any means to convince women to go out with me.
"I am half-sick of shadows..."
It's what I uttered to some woman in grad school. Said woman eventually became my wife. She likes to tell people, "How could I say 'no' to him? He quoted Tennyson, for chrissakes!"
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Post by mikegarrison on Mar 30, 2020 15:03:30 GMT -5
Much, Much, Much less prepared. Engineering degree teaches you how to problem-solve, on complex problems without obvious solutions. And exposes you to enough of the other engineering disciplines to know when something is reasonable or not.....IMHO. I think I disagree with this. Many things in this world can teach problem-solving skills. Mainly it is "solving problems" that teach such skills, and practical experience is at least as important as homework and tests and such. Where I think engineering education is essential is in learning the underlying physics and math that modern engineering relies upon. I was an aero-astro engineering major and I had only one class on jet engines in school. My first job was at a jet engine company. I had almost no heat-transfer formal education, but heat transfer was a huge part of my job. But I had the math and physics background to pick it up very quickly. After getting laid off (along with over 25% of the rest of the engineers at the facility), I got a new job doing noise control. I had essentially no training in acoustics. But again, I had the math and physics background to be able to learn it very quickly. Eventually I moved from acoustics to emissions (picking up from the early work I did in my first job, actually). Again, my math and physics background was extremely important. To be an engineer, it can often be sufficient in day-to-day work to understand how things work. To be a good engineer, though, it is important to understand *why* things work. I think this distinction is the heart of the difference between learning engineering on the job versus getting an engineering degree (and then still learning specific subject matter on the job). It would not be impossible for companies to provide this sort of training, but I don't think it would be efficient. Better to learn it from people who specialize in teaching it.
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Post by volleydadtx on Mar 30, 2020 15:35:27 GMT -5
College isn't a vocational school, and never was intended to be.
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Post by joetrinsey on Mar 30, 2020 17:52:32 GMT -5
I will be the first to defend 4 year colleges based on my life experiences. Finally went back to school in my late 30's after I had started a family, got my degree and it has opened up jobs that were forever closed to me before. the reason why I finally went and finished? I worked in the same type of lab as you did, had no experience, eventually made my way up from a lab tech doing extractions to the team leader for extractions and then moved up to chemist running a GC. Corporation buys us out, was let go because my not having a degree did not look good on their brochures of qualified personnel to give to customers. Could not find a job in the same field, couldn't even get an interview because no degree. I go to school for 3.5 years, get a degree and suddenly am swamped with offers even though I graduated in 2009 at the height of the recession. So yes, 4 year does matter but I also completely agree with what you have stated. School was easy for me because of my background, I had already done much of the work prior to entry into college and what I had learned by doing. Funny, I view your story as evidence that college is overvalued in the workplace even if it was worth it for you as it was required for employment.
The economic term for that is "signalling."
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Post by joetrinsey on Mar 30, 2020 17:53:38 GMT -5
Much, Much, Much less prepared. Engineering degree teaches you how to problem-solve, on complex problems without obvious solutions. And exposes you to enough of the other engineering disciplines to know when something is reasonable or not.....IMHO.
Interesting. I obviously have a different perspective, and came from a top-ranked engineering school, although I didn't end up pursuing engineering as a career. Although, I suppose coaching is problem solving, of a sort.
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