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Post by cindra on Oct 6, 2020 20:41:16 GMT -5
Since the most likely tipping point states - in the off chance this election is actually close - are Pennsylvania or Wisconsin. Both run by Democrat Governors - problem solved. Or - it's an even bigger problem. Both are Democratic governors with Republican legislatures (and NC as well). If the outcome is murky, legislatures could make a rule allowing them to just choose what electors are sent, regardless of what vote totals are certified (under the state executive branch). This probably doesn't matter, as Biden will win in a landslide if current polling holds, especially since Trump seems to be doing his best to destroy his chances a months out.
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Post by ironhammer on Oct 6, 2020 20:42:11 GMT -5
A big gift to authoritarian regimes around the world no doubt. As opposed to the last 100 years of American foreign policy? Fair point. America did have some sordid authoritarian allies during the Cold War. Not to mention we are still good buddies with Saudi Arabia, a regime known for flouting the most basic human rights. Still, America has never officially abandoned its approach of upholding democratic principles and rule of law until Trump came along. Not conceding? Implying there won't be a peaceful transfer of power? Abandoning science for pseudoscience? All of that is unprecedented. Until Trump. His views are more in line with dictatorial regimes than a democracy. Whereas America once led by example, now Trump is following the example of Putin and other authoritarians.
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Post by mervinswerved on Oct 6, 2020 20:46:41 GMT -5
Seems like a system which depends on one party needing to win elections by 4 points just to "win" and by 7 or 8 to avoid the other party trying to steal it is a bad system.
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Post by ironhammer on Oct 6, 2020 20:50:27 GMT -5
Seems like a system which depends on one party needing to win elections by 4 points just to "win" and by 7 or 8 to avoid the other party trying to steal it is a bad system. Agree. But no democratic system is perfect. Nobody has called into question the very foundations of US democracy like Trump... The last time democracy was under this much threat in America was probably the Great Depression, when mass unemployment and social upheaval made authoritarian values potentially appealing to many. But thanks to Roosevelt's New Deal, that authoritarianism never transpired into a serious threat. But can you imagine Trump doing a New Deal? I think not.
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Post by mikegarrison on Oct 6, 2020 20:54:29 GMT -5
Seems like a system which depends on one party needing to win elections by 4 points just to "win" and by 7 or 8 to avoid the other party trying to steal it is a bad system. Agree. But no democratic system is perfect. But nobody has called into question the very foundations of US democracy like Trump... Did you not live through the Bush v. Gore fiasco in 2000?
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Post by ironhammer on Oct 6, 2020 20:59:01 GMT -5
Agree. But no democratic system is perfect. But nobody has called into question the very foundations of US democracy like Trump... Did you not live through the Bush v. Gore fiasco in 2000? Gore vs Bush was bad, but it did not shake the foundations of US democracy like Trump. Neither Gore or Bush refused to concede during the campaign. Neither attack the voting process as illegitimate like Trump. You don't seem to realize the difference in the severity of threat that Trump represents.
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Post by mervinswerved on Oct 6, 2020 21:21:32 GMT -5
Did you not live through the Bush v. Gore fiasco in 2000? Gore vs Bush was bad, but it did not shake the foundations of US democracy like Trump. I can feel my brain melting.
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Post by mervinswerved on Oct 6, 2020 21:22:45 GMT -5
Seems like a system which depends on one party needing to win elections by 4 points just to "win" and by 7 or 8 to avoid the other party trying to steal it is a bad system. Agree. But no democratic system is perfect. Nobody has called into question the very foundations of US democracy like Trump... The last time democracy was under this much threat in America was probably the Great Depression, when mass unemployment and social upheaval made authoritarian values potentially appealing to many. But thanks to Roosevelt's New Deal, that authoritarianism never transpired into a serious threat. But can you imagine Trump doing a New Deal? I think not. What authoritarianism was prevented by the New Deal?
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Post by ironhammer on Oct 6, 2020 21:33:54 GMT -5
Agree. But no democratic system is perfect. Nobody has called into question the very foundations of US democracy like Trump... The last time democracy was under this much threat in America was probably the Great Depression, when mass unemployment and social upheaval made authoritarian values potentially appealing to many. But thanks to Roosevelt's New Deal, that authoritarianism never transpired into a serious threat. But can you imagine Trump doing a New Deal? I think not. What authoritarianism was prevented by the New Deal? Whoa, take it easy. What's the problem? You are not familiar with history? Look what kind of political parties arose in the World in the 1930's.
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Post by keener on Oct 6, 2020 21:42:14 GMT -5
I'm not sweating any of this whatever happens with Trump will all get settled eventually and then they can wake up Joe Biden and tell him everything that happened before he gets sworn in at inauguration.
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Post by mervinswerved on Oct 6, 2020 21:58:32 GMT -5
What authoritarianism was prevented by the New Deal? Whoa, take it easy. What's the problem? You are not familiar with history? Look what kind of political parties arose in the World in the 1930's. I'm well aware. I'm curious what authoritarianism you think was going to arise in America without the New Deal.
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Post by ironhammer on Oct 6, 2020 22:16:39 GMT -5
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Post by mikegarrison on Oct 6, 2020 22:18:22 GMT -5
Whoa, take it easy. What's the problem? You are not familiar with history? Look what kind of political parties arose in the World in the 1930's. I'm well aware. I'm curious what authoritarianism you think was going to arise in America without the New Deal. There were quite a few Americans who admired Hitler and Mussolini and felt their solutions to the Great Depression were the right way to go. FDR obviously felt differently, and in the US we went more of a socialist route. In Italy and Europe they went the fascist route. I don't know if you can say the New Deal "prevented" the US from going fascist, but the alternative was definitely on the table when the New Deal was chosen instead. (Not that Hoover was a fascist. As far as I know, fascism in the US didn't rise to the point where it actually had major-party support. But it did have some prominent backers.)
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Post by ironhammer on Oct 6, 2020 22:48:49 GMT -5
I'm well aware. I'm curious what authoritarianism you think was going to arise in America without the New Deal. There were quite a few Americans who admired Hitler and Mussolini and felt their solutions to the Great Depression were the right way to go. FDR obviously felt differently, and in the US we went more of a socialist route. In Italy and Europe they went the fascist route. I don't know if you can say the New Deal "prevented" the US from going fascist, but the alternative was definitely on the table when the New Deal was chosen instead. (Not that Hoover was a fascist. As far as I know, fascism in the US didn't rise to the point where it actually had major-party support. But it did have some prominent backers.) Yes, point taken. I should have been a little more careful about the New Deal averting fascism in the US, but I certainly agree that fascism did found appeal among certain segement of the US, although it never became a serious political alternative. Whether that is due to the New Deal can be debated I suppose. I'm just glad history turned out the way it did when we had Roosevelt and the New Deal instead of worst alternatives, including any fascist alternative.
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Post by guest2 on Oct 6, 2020 23:25:23 GMT -5
As opposed to the last 100 years of American foreign policy? Fair point. America did have some sordid authoritarian allies during the Cold War. Not to mention we are still good buddies with Saudi Arabia, a regime known for flouting the most basic human rights. Still, America has never officially abandoned its approach of upholding democratic principles and rule of law until Trump came along. Not conceding? Implying there won't be a peaceful transfer of power? Abandoning science for pseudoscience? All of that is unprecedented. Until Trump. His views are more in line with dictatorial regimes than a democracy. Whereas America once led by example, now Trump is following the example of Putin and other authoritarians. Yes and this entirely semantic distinction matters a great deal to the developing world.
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