Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2021 13:48:02 GMT -5
Are you EVER going to answer my question: Does INTENT not matter to you? Is it OK to try to rob a bank even if you aren't actually successful? (Not that I agree that there hasn't been success. But that's a conclusion I know you won't even entertain.) Yes, Both parties intend to frame legislation that will help them maximize power while trying to frame the issue in the best light possible. No one is really honest about this. The Democratic party (mostly) want DC statehood and Puerto Rico to be a state because they believe that this will help gain/ensure power. Republicans oppose the same reason. Both parties will dance around the justifications for their positions in order to land at the predetermined outcome. This has always been the case - Alaska and Hawaii became states at the same time as a compromise - ironically Alaska being a likely Democratic state and Hawaii Republican. Does it matter that those things are the RIGHT thing to do, whether they help one party or not? Statehood for DC and Puerto Rico v. voter suppression. Hmmm. "Both sides."
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 17, 2021 13:59:06 GMT -5
Yes, Both parties intend to frame legislation that will help them maximize power while trying to frame the issue in the best light possible. No one is really honest about this. The Democratic party (mostly) want DC statehood and Puerto Rico to be a state because they believe that this will help gain/ensure power. Republicans oppose the same reason. Both parties will dance around the justifications for their positions in order to land at the predetermined outcome. This has always been the case - Alaska and Hawaii became states at the same time as a compromise - ironically Alaska being a likely Democratic state and Hawaii Republican. Does it matter that those things are the RIGHT thing to do, whether they help one party or not? Statehood for DC and Puerto Rico v. voter suppression. Hmmm. "Both sides." Is statehood for DC and Puerto Rico the right thing to do? DC (other than the constitutional area) could easily be annexed into either Virginia or Maryland and the problem is solved. Politically - statehood for PR is much more likely to pass than DC.
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Post by donut on Jun 17, 2021 14:02:25 GMT -5
The Democratic party (mostly) want DC statehood and Puerto Rico to be a state because they believe that this will help gain/ensure power. Republicans oppose the same reason. Both parties will dance around the justifications for their positions in order to land at the predetermined outcome. Regardless of the selfish goals, one of these goals is more in line with democratic ideals, no? You keep equating the two, when one is objectively, through a lens of "let's maximize democracy," much better than the other. bump
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 17, 2021 14:08:08 GMT -5
Regardless of the selfish goals, one of these goals is more in line with democratic ideals, no? You keep equating the two, when one is objectively, through a lens of "let's maximize democracy," much better than the other. bump And how is DC statehood objectively more 'democratic' than annexing into VA or MD?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2021 14:10:41 GMT -5
Hoo-boy. That wasn't the question, blue.
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Post by donut on Jun 17, 2021 14:11:11 GMT -5
And how is DC statehood objectively more 'democratic' than annexing into VA or MD? That's been discussed here. Annexing doesn't seem feasible. DC has more people than Vermont and Wyoming. Should we annex both of those states too?
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Post by donut on Jun 17, 2021 14:12:19 GMT -5
Notice, as always, he completely ignores the fact that his "both sides" tired viewpoint fails. Again.
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Post by mervinswerved on Jun 17, 2021 14:30:31 GMT -5
Retrocession into VA or MD is bad because DC is a distinct place, has its own history and culture, and is very much not part of Virginia or Maryland.
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Post by mervinswerved on Jun 17, 2021 14:34:08 GMT -5
Oh and, you know, DC residents overwhelming voted for statehood, not retrocession.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 17, 2021 15:25:47 GMT -5
Does it matter that those things are the RIGHT thing to do, whether they help one party or not? Statehood for DC and Puerto Rico v. voter suppression. Hmmm. "Both sides." Is statehood for DC and Puerto Rico the right thing to do? DC (other than the constitutional area) could easily be annexed into either Virginia or Maryland and the problem is solved. Politically - statehood for PR is much more likely to pass than DC. DC has more people than Wyoming. Should Wyoming be a state?
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Post by soundslikecoach on Jun 21, 2021 10:15:27 GMT -5
DC was set up the way it is for this purpose. IMO, DC statehood discussions are not valid unless land is given back to the state(s) that gave up the land to create DC (can't remember if it was just MD or also VA) at the beginning. at that point, I doubt people will be so excited to have DC as a state. Maybe MD (maybe VA) would be happy b/c of all that tax money!
DC and surrounding areas have some of the richest counties in America. could you imagine a place that houses a large portion of our federal gov't workers, having the ability to sway a law into passage? too risky and it reeks of a power grab where it would make it challenging to ever change things in the future, if needed. they already vote themselves raises while asking themselves to be exempt from laws they require of us (remember ACA). The federal gov't wants to keep growing in power. Why would we want to help them so they can separate from the people more?
these arguments are like the filibuster. how can dem lawmakers complain and argue against it, yet they used it quite a bit over the last couple of years. Only when in power do they complain about it. if you are not sure of this, remember that some of the Dems pushing this didn't want to get rid of filibuster before Obama. Harry Reid pushed hard to get rid of it when they had the majority. After Obama, you never heard about getting rid of it. Now, back in the seat of power, they want it removed.
Add together the filibuster, DC statehood and PR statehood, and this become a blatant power grab. Regardless of political persuasion, we should want our leaders to always have to earn position/power/sway. I don't want to limit our ability to stop/remove bills/people. If we do then those people will continue to find ways of grabbing even more power.
about PR: that is an interesting one. unlike DC they were not set up explicitly to never be a state. does anybody know otherwise? what is the purpose of the statehood? what benefits does the US receive? do we have other territories besides PR? if so, why do we not talk about them?
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Post by mervinswerved on Jun 21, 2021 10:43:06 GMT -5
Simultaneously arguing against DC and Puerto Rico statehood while knowing nothing about why either place wants statehood.
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Post by donut on Jun 21, 2021 10:47:42 GMT -5
lol yikes
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Post by mervinswerved on Jun 21, 2021 10:50:53 GMT -5
"Does the United States have other territories?" is a question that was asked in 2021.
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Post by soundslikecoach on Jun 21, 2021 11:06:09 GMT -5
I know they have other territories. bad take on being facetious
Mervinswerved-why do they want statehood and why should it be granted?
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