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Post by badgerbreath on Aug 27, 2022 15:42:36 GMT -5
The fan identified and banned. Wasn't a BYU student. Are we to believe it was just one person? BYU has a history of poor student behavior. Sounds more like deflecting rather than accepting any responsibility to fix. I want to see the NCAA and maybe AVCA step in in some fashion to prevent such things from happening. Programs need to be punished in some way if such behavior persists. That would shift the calculation for universities and programs away from fear of stirring the pot and toward doing something about such problems proactively. It would motivate student bodies as well, and perhaps bystanders. It's terrible that a student athlete has to summon a police officer for protection in a match, particularly on account of fear of racial violence. You can't simply ignore the history behind that threat in this country and it should have no part in the sport. |
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Post by slxpress on Aug 27, 2022 15:46:37 GMT -5
It's 2022 and you still have plenty of YOUNG white people, in public, effectively normalizing crazy racist behavior. And then these are the same people, and their oblivious Fox News watching enablers, that want to COMPLAIN about people being "woke" about racial justice because it's contrary to the apparently colorblind society we have....smh. 👏🏾👏🏾 It has gotten really bad over the last 4 to 5 yrs. It's gone the way it was always going to go. People talk about racism like it's an evil that needs to be wiped from the face of the earth, when actually it's simply a tribal reaction deeply embedded in us from before we were a bipedal species, and then strengthened and accentuated through the forces of evolution, in particular the watershed evolution of going from homo erectus to homo sapiens. Racism will never be eliminated. Ever. The only way to get rid of racism is to get rid of races. Let's all intermarry until there's no significant cultural or racial differences between us to speak of. And even then we'll find outliers, both physical and otherwise, to separate ourselves into various tribes that compete for limited resources and positions at the top of the hierarchy - which is a primordial value system even more deeply embedded than tribalism. The natural reaction when a race is demonized is not for that race to bend the knee and say, "You're right. We hand over all of our historical power, wealth, and influence. We're evil. We admit it. You would do such a better job." The natural reaction is for members of that race to use that demonization as a call to arms. Which is what is happening. And it's all going to get a whole lot worse. On both sides. Instead of demonization and suppression, we need a lot more honesty, a lot more understanding different perspectives, and a lot more work towards finding shared values that go beyond race, and find common enemies that can bond us as a tribe without resorting to race. I don't see any of that happening. What I see is increased polarization, increased demonization, an increased reliance on our respective echo chambers, and increased stress on the apocalyptic nature of the other side. All of that simply leads to massacres, eventually. Which is exactly where we're headed. Not today. And not tomorrow. But eventually one side or the other is going to gather enough power to feel like they can put an end to the other side, and they have every right to exercise that power. That's how this stuff goes. And then if we survive that as a species, the cycle will start all over again. I guess maybe eventually we get to the point where we can manipulate our gene code on fundamental levels to "snip out" undesirable traits, but that will have all kinds of unforeseen consequences as well, and is way scarier to me than the traits being present in the first place. |
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BYU 2022
Aug 27, 2022 15:47:32 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by dodger on Aug 27, 2022 15:47:32 GMT -5
You should be banned too!!! That's one way of dealing with me. Maybe you should appeal to the mods and see if you can make that happen. Edited: If anything I've said on here is worthy of being banned, then I don't want to be on this forum. Not banned from here VT) forgive me: yours is but an opinion: i meant you should be banned from attending BYU matches also. You weren't close enough to see: a social media post, a cop stands guard by the bench, the school has a press release and you need to be closer to really believe!!! You dont need to be allowed back in either! But of course its only my opinion!💪🏽 |
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Post by slxpress on Aug 27, 2022 15:49:46 GMT -5
There's a decent chance this person's name gets out, and then his life is in all likelihood going to be ruined. He might lose his job. It's certainly happened before. Google searches will find him for years after this. He made a conscious choice to be a hateful and vitriolic person because another human deigned to enter his local university's gymnasium and be who they are. Are you suggesting he can't control himself and shouldn't be expected to? Why do you feel so bad for him? Does his world view based in fantasy and his inability to control himself make him qualified for most public or private jobs? Help me understand why you feel so badly for him. Feel free to DM me, since this thread has taken enough of a left turn and I ain't goin' down like that. Who said I feel bad for him? As an oldie, I'm concerned our actions can have that much of a life altering consequence. I much prefer pre social media/pre internet when people could make mistakes in their behavior and not be hung on a proverbial cross by an internet mob for it. It's not this guy that I have a whole lot of sympathy towards. It's the dynamic in general that's morphed into existence, and the consequences it brings about to humans in general. Mob justice is not my favorite aspect of human behavior. |
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BYU 2022
Aug 27, 2022 15:53:20 GMT -5
via mobile
vnv21 likes this
Post by dodger on Aug 27, 2022 15:53:20 GMT -5
👏🏾👏🏾 It has gotten really bad over the last 4 to 5 yrs. It's gone the way it was always going to go. People talk about racism like it's an evil that needs to be wiped from the face of the earth, when actually it's simply a tribal reaction deeply embedded in us from before we were a bipedal species, and then strengthened and accentuated through the forces of evolution, in particular the watershed evolution of going from homo erectus to homo sapiens. Racism will never be eliminated. Ever. The only way to get rid of racism is to get rid of races. Let's all intermarry until there's no significant cultural or racial differences between us to speak of. And even then we'll find outliers, both physical and otherwise, to separate ourselves into various tribes that compete for limited resources and positions at the top of the hierarchy - which is a primordial value system even more deeply embedded than tribalism. The natural reaction when a race is demonized is not for that race to bend the knee and say, "You're right. We hand over all of our historical power, wealth, and influence. We're evil. We admit it. You would do such a better job." The natural reaction is for members of that race to use that demonization as a call to arms. Which is what is happening. And it's all going to get a whole lot worse. On both sides. Instead of demonization and suppression, we need a lot more honesty, a lot more understanding different perspectives, and a lot more work towards finding shared values that go beyond race, and find common enemies that can bond us as a tribe without resorting to race. I don't see any of that happening. What I see is increased polarization, increased demonization, an increased reliance on our respective echo chambers, and increased stress on the apocalyptic nature of the other side. All of that simply leads to massacres, eventually. Which is exactly where we're headed. Not today. And not tomorrow. But eventually one side or the other is going to gather enough power to feel like they can put an end to the other side, and they have every right to exercise that power. That's how this stuff goes. And then if we survive that as a species, the cycle will start all over again. I guess maybe eventually we get to the point where we can manipulate our gene code on fundamental levels to "snip out" undesirable traits, but that will have all kinds of unforeseen consequences as well, and is way scarier to me than the traits being present in the first place. Sorry your attempt at academic postalizing goes wanting in these circumstances! Stay on topic a fan was threatening an athlete and no one stood up!!!! |
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BYU 2022
Aug 27, 2022 15:55:40 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by dodger on Aug 27, 2022 15:55:40 GMT -5
It's gone the way it was always going to go. People talk about racism like it's an evil that needs to be wiped from the face of the earth, when actually it's simply a tribal reaction deeply embedded in us from before we were a bipedal species, and then strengthened and accentuated through the forces of evolution, in particular the watershed evolution of going from homo erectus to homo sapiens. Racism will never be eliminated. Ever. The only way to get rid of racism is to get rid of races. Let's all intermarry until there's no significant cultural or racial differences between us to speak of. And even then we'll find outliers, both physical and otherwise, to separate ourselves into various tribes that compete for limited resources and positions at the top of the hierarchy - which is a primordial value system even more deeply embedded than tribalism. The natural reaction when a race is demonized is not for that race to bend the knee and say, "You're right. We hand over all of our historical power, wealth, and influence. We're evil. We admit it. You would do such a better job." The natural reaction is for members of that race to use that demonization as a call to arms. Which is what is happening. And it's all going to get a whole lot worse. On both sides. Instead of demonization and suppression, we need a lot more honesty, a lot more understanding different perspectives, and a lot more work towards finding shared values that go beyond race, and find common enemies that can bond us as a tribe without resorting to race. I don't see any of that happening. What I see is increased polarization, increased demonization, an increased reliance on our respective echo chambers, and increased stress on the apocalyptic nature of the other side. All of that simply leads to massacres, eventually. Which is exactly where we're headed. Not today. And not tomorrow. But eventually one side or the other is going to gather enough power to feel like they can put an end to the other side, and they have every right to exercise that power. That's how this stuff goes. And then if we survive that as a species, the cycle will start all over again. I guess maybe eventually we get to the point where we can manipulate our gene code on fundamental levels to "snip out" undesirable traits, but that will have all kinds of unforeseen consequences as well, and is way scarier to me than the traits being present in the first place. Sorry your attempt at academic postalizing goes wanting in these circumstances! Stay on topic a fan was threatening an athlete and no one stood up!!! Yes social media can hang before the facts are in but there is more than a social media post here!! Balance not required in this instance |
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Post by chatchu-off moksri on Aug 27, 2022 15:59:28 GMT -5
I really think they should get rid of that student section right behind the players. It always made me nervous to see how close they were to the servers.
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Post by slxpress on Aug 27, 2022 16:08:33 GMT -5
It's gone the way it was always going to go. People talk about racism like it's an evil that needs to be wiped from the face of the earth, when actually it's simply a tribal reaction deeply embedded in us from before we were a bipedal species, and then strengthened and accentuated through the forces of evolution, in particular the watershed evolution of going from homo erectus to homo sapiens. Racism will never be eliminated. Ever. The only way to get rid of racism is to get rid of races. Let's all intermarry until there's no significant cultural or racial differences between us to speak of. And even then we'll find outliers, both physical and otherwise, to separate ourselves into various tribes that compete for limited resources and positions at the top of the hierarchy - which is a primordial value system even more deeply embedded than tribalism. The natural reaction when a race is demonized is not for that race to bend the knee and say, "You're right. We hand over all of our historical power, wealth, and influence. We're evil. We admit it. You would do such a better job." The natural reaction is for members of that race to use that demonization as a call to arms. Which is what is happening. And it's all going to get a whole lot worse. On both sides. Instead of demonization and suppression, we need a lot more honesty, a lot more understanding different perspectives, and a lot more work towards finding shared values that go beyond race, and find common enemies that can bond us as a tribe without resorting to race. I don't see any of that happening. What I see is increased polarization, increased demonization, an increased reliance on our respective echo chambers, and increased stress on the apocalyptic nature of the other side. All of that simply leads to massacres, eventually. Which is exactly where we're headed. Not today. And not tomorrow. But eventually one side or the other is going to gather enough power to feel like they can put an end to the other side, and they have every right to exercise that power. That's how this stuff goes. And then if we survive that as a species, the cycle will start all over again. I guess maybe eventually we get to the point where we can manipulate our gene code on fundamental levels to "snip out" undesirable traits, but that will have all kinds of unforeseen consequences as well, and is way scarier to me than the traits being present in the first place. Sorry your attempt at academic postalizing goes wanting in these circumstances! Stay on topic a fan was threatening an athlete and no one stood up!!!! I felt like I was very on topic in terms of the posts I responded to. I've already said that the response during the match was inadequate. I also know from experience how difficult it is for people in general to stand up to egregious behavior in the moment. Think about the people on Flight 93. We don't memorialize them because what they did was easy. We memorialize them because we know what they did was unusual. I'm not trying to defend anyone here. But I am saying that it's normal behavior. They've done studies where if something unusual happens, and the person close to it reacts, everyone else reacts as well. But if something unusual happens and the people close to it act like nothing unusual is happening, the tendency is for everyone else to react that way as well. The way I usually frame it is that certain situations require a William Wallace. There needed to be a William Wallace in that BYU student section, and there wasn't. Only 1.5% of the population of Utah is African American. There are likely no African Americans in many of the communities where those students grew up. Using the N word probably received zero consequence, even if it was frowned on by some people. There was no personal experience with racism, because everyone was the same race. So then you have this person who wasn't a student, violently confronting one of the only people of color in the building, and the people around that guy froze. Is that okay? Absolutely not. Is it beyond the kin of human understanding it would occur? Only if you're completely unable to put yourself in another person's shoes, and solely view the world through your own personal prism and judge others by it. BYU is a very homogenized environment on a number of levels. That's going to create a number of dynamics. A big one is not going against the crowd. I'm not justifying the behavior. I'm simply explaining it. I was never aware of the behavior involving BYU fans before. If it's as common place as people are claiming, I hope a bigger public magnifying glass is put on it, and they're forced to be defensive about it. This is one incident, but if what people are saying is true about the general dynamics regarding BYU fans - and it's not difficult to believe it - then hopefully we see a greater level of focus around it. |
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Post by slxpress on Aug 27, 2022 16:11:29 GMT -5
I really think they should get rid of that student section right behind the players. It always made me nervous to see how close they were to the servers. Well, I think that's easier said than done. What absolutely should happen is a stronger enforcement presence. If not actual officers of the law, certainly ushers with the authority to remove fans from their seats and a willingness to do so. That has other effects such as curbing fans' enthusiasm, but if that enthusiasm leads to abuse, then that's the consequence. |
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BYU 2022
Aug 27, 2022 16:12:51 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by beba on Aug 27, 2022 16:12:51 GMT -5
This is a fascinating discussion. It demonstrates so clearly why people who have already formulated opinions without hearing the evidence, are excluded from juries who are required to actually listen to the evidence before formulating an opinion.
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Zazu
All-American
Singin' once again in the rain, snow, hail, fog, smog, mist, haze, sun, wind, etc.
Posts: 1,536 
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Post by Zazu on Aug 27, 2022 16:24:47 GMT -5
That's one way of dealing with me. Maybe you should appeal to the mods and see if you can make that happen. Edited: If anything I've said on here is worthy of being banned, then I don't want to be on this forum. Not banned from here VT) forgive me: yours is but an opinion: i meant you should be banned from attending BYU matches also. You weren't close enough to see: a social media post, a cop stands guard by the bench, the school has a press release and you need to be closer to really believe!!! You dont need to be allowed back in either! But of course its only my opinion!💪🏽 Thank you for clarifying, although even if you had meant banning me from this forum, I stand by what I said. Banning me from the match? On the grounds that I am in denial? Is that really what you gleaned from my previous posts? I can be difficult to understand, but I don't recall ever denying it happened. I don't know one way or the other because I was not a part of it. I assume everyone is telling the truth, but seek for the facts to verify it. What is wrong with doing that? And do you really think that is a good reason for banning me from the match? |
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Post by hangonsloopy on Aug 27, 2022 16:30:09 GMT -5
Did the Duke coaching staff know? I would have taken my team off the court immediately. My thoughts exactly, I’m really curious if they knew because they definitely should’ve walked out on the spot to protect the young woman from the abuse and make a firm statement….if they knew and did nothing then Duke athletics need to address that with them |
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BYU 2022
Aug 27, 2022 16:31:30 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by beba on Aug 27, 2022 16:31:30 GMT -5
The ongoing investigation has yet to locate any information that the accusation is true.
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Post by slxpress on Aug 27, 2022 16:32:44 GMT -5
Not banned from here VT) forgive me: yours is but an opinion: i meant you should be banned from attending BYU matches also. You weren't close enough to see: a social media post, a cop stands guard by the bench, the school has a press release and you need to be closer to really believe!!! You dont need to be allowed back in either! But of course its only my opinion!💪🏽 Thank you for clarifying, although even if you had meant banning me from this forum, I stand by what I said. Banning me from the match? On the grounds that I am in denial? Is that really what you gleaned from my previous posts? I can be difficult to understand, but I don't recall ever denying it happened. I don't know one way or the other because I was not a part of it. I assume everyone is telling the truth, but seek for the facts to verify it. What is wrong with doing that? And do you really think that is a good reason for banning me from the match? Do you float? |
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Post by dodger on Aug 27, 2022 16:32:57 GMT -5
I really think they should get rid of that student section right behind the players. It always made me nervous to see how close they were to the servers. Well, I think that's easier said than done. What absolutely should happen is a stronger enforcement presence. If not actual officers of the law, certainly ushers with the authority to remove fans from their seats and a willingness to do so. That has other effects such as curbing fans' enthusiasm, but if that enthusiasm leads to abuse, then that's the consequence. Your “lecturing” on the human condition and how hard it is, blah blah blah blah blah: there is a time and place for blah blah blah; and i dont think this was it; i an done 💪🏽💪🏽 |
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