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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2021 15:06:02 GMT -5
In this particular example, if a Senator truly believes a $15 minimum wage is the way to go, his or her job should be to convince his constituents (if they oppose it). They can also convince him or her to abandon the idea, sure. But he or she should NOT abandon it if he or she thinks that will be detrimental.
If all that matters to you is getting re-elected you shouldn't hold the office.
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Post by donut on Feb 11, 2021 15:54:39 GMT -5
Your vision for the Senate is a fantasy. There is nothing historical, constitutional or practical that supports your views. It's hard to respond to because it's so distanced from reality, to be honest.
(And a hypothetical that's impossible is not a good hypothetical).
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Post by mikegarrison on Feb 11, 2021 16:03:19 GMT -5
There is such a wide gulf between "all that matters is being re-elected" and "re-election is your entire job". Those are both straw men.
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Post by mervinswerved on Feb 11, 2021 16:07:43 GMT -5
The $15 minimum wage (which *might* pass) is the result of nearly a decade of activism, organizing, and labor action. That work is what has pushed elected officials to support it, not the other way around.
Ed Markey is a great example of this. He saw the political winds and signed onto the GND, giving him some real progressive bonafides that possibly saved his ass down the road against JKIII.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2021 16:09:11 GMT -5
There is such a wide gulf between "all that matters is being re-elected" and "re-election is your entire job". Those are both straw men. Which is why I made a clear distinction. I said a senator needs to follow his/her principles AND listen to his constituents. But he/she should not do something he/she knows is wrong. Ever. I want senators to take their job seriously. That is not a fantasy. And this idea that I am delusional about WHY the Senate was created in the first place is farcical. If they aren't going to be the adults in the room, abolish it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2021 16:12:23 GMT -5
The $15 minimum wage (which *might* pass) is the result of nearly a decade of activism, organizing, and labor action. That work is what has pushed elected officials to support it, not the other way around. Ed Markey is a great example of this. He saw the political winds and signed onto the GND, giving him some real progressive bonafides that possibly saved his ass down the road against JKIII. So you would agree that he SHOULD have been in support of it decades ago? No one is saying political pressure doesn't work. That is a totally separate subject. If we are waiting for the people of America to drive our politics, good luck with that. They get scared by the WORD socialism. They elected Donald Trump.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2021 16:13:05 GMT -5
I still have no idea why anything that I am saying is even controversial, let alone stirring up such vitriol at times.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2021 16:15:39 GMT -5
Civil Rights is another. Yes, there was pressure from the people. But MOST of America, certainly in the South, was opposed to it.
What do you, as a senator with integrity, do?
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Post by mervinswerved on Feb 11, 2021 16:17:55 GMT -5
Civil Rights is another. Yes, there was pressure from the people. But MOST of America, certainly in the South, was opposed to it. What do you, as a senator with integrity, do? Uh, if I was a Senator from the South during the 50's and 60's . . . I probably opposed the Civil Rights Act.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2021 16:19:56 GMT -5
Civil Rights is another. Yes, there was pressure from the people. But MOST of America, certainly in the South, was opposed to it. What do you, as a senator with integrity, do? Uh, if I was a Senator from the South during the 50's and 60's . . . I probably opposed the Civil Rights Act. Yep. But SHOULD you have? Especially if you knew it was the wrong thing, morally, to do? Who is more admirable right now? Ted Cruz or Mitt Romney?
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Post by mervinswerved on Feb 11, 2021 16:23:58 GMT -5
Uh, if I was a Senator from the South during the 50's and 60's . . . I probably opposed the Civil Rights Act. Yep. But SHOULD you have? Especially if you knew it was the wrong thing, morally, to do? Evidence that southern senators thought that Jim Crow was wrong? Neither? Romney has caused almost immeasurable pain and suffering over his lifetime and Ted Cruz . . . well he's Ted Cruz.
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Post by mervinswerved on Feb 11, 2021 16:26:15 GMT -5
The $15 minimum wage (which *might* pass) is the result of nearly a decade of activism, organizing, and labor action. That work is what has pushed elected officials to support it, not the other way around. Ed Markey is a great example of this. He saw the political winds and signed onto the GND, giving him some real progressive bonafides that possibly saved his ass down the road against JKIII. So you would agree that he SHOULD have been in support of it decades ago? No one is saying political pressure doesn't work. That is a totally separate subject. If Senator Ed Markey came out in support of the Green New Deal decades ago people would first say "who is Senator Ed Markey" and then "what's the Green New Deal?" You have a fascinating idea of how political change happens in America.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2021 16:33:39 GMT -5
I prefer it to your cynicism. See comment about Romney above. Or Jim Crow (hypotheticals don't seem to be popular in this crowd, but I bet there were several southern senators who knew Jim Crow was wrong).
But, hey, if you think senators are there just to follow the orders of the people, so be it. Give me leaders any day of the week. Sometimes the unpopular thing is the right thing. That's what the Senate is there for, otherwise it has no purpose at all (which may be the case).
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Post by mervinswerved on Feb 11, 2021 16:42:19 GMT -5
I cannot think of a single transformative change in American society or politics which didn't result from grassroots or mass movement political action by everyday people. I prefer it to your cynicism. See comment about Romney above. Or Jim Crow (hypotheticals don't seem to be popular in this crowd, but I bet there were several southern senators who knew Jim Crow was wrong). Romney is one of the worst public figures of our lifetime. He doesn't get a pass from me because he's willing to vote against Donald Trump. Although, I'm on the record as being a fan of his child benefit proposal. I said that? I'm a big believer in radical democracy and developing the power of the citizenry. I'm not a Pollyanna, I don't think we're getting the People's Republic of America any time soon, but we can use the power of a mobilized and motivated population to enact real and meaningful political change. I'm not going to work to elect someone and then just hope they'll "do the right thing." Even my boy Bernie needs to be reminded sometimes of where his political capital comes from.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2021 16:53:53 GMT -5
My last comment/question on this subject (promise):
How should senators vote in this impeachment trial?
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