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Post by vbsam16 on Apr 1, 2021 23:07:03 GMT -5
I mean....I’m not saying Wisconsin doesn’t deserve the B1G title, but they didn’t prove that they are the best this season. They literally played the bottom half of the conference and a couple hindered teams at the top. Nothing to write home about. I’m sure they’ll prove themselves in the tournament though.
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Post by buckypete on Apr 1, 2021 23:09:06 GMT -5
the reality is still the reality...no playing Minnie twice, no playing PSU, Neb nor OSU...and because of that, there is no legitimacy in saying they did anything more than win the games they did play & meet the B1G screwed up standard for title. More than 1/8th of their wins didn't even have them play to earn it. You can't say they dominated the Conference, b/c they didn't play the Conference. You can't say they demonstrated a level equal to some of the past NCs because they didn't even remotely play enough to make such comparisons enter the conversation. They are getting short changed in this wacky year where the entire sport got shortchanged. Asterisk season and while none of it is their fault, that fact doesn't change the outcome & the asterisk. The best part will be how I won't see an asterisk on that banner they raise next September at the Field House.
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Post by badgerbreath on Apr 1, 2021 23:14:39 GMT -5
Beat the number 1 team (Massey) they could in conference by +20 points with a first team all American on bench while playing a setter who had never set a ball in college. Beat the number 3 (Massey) team they could play by +47 over 6 sets No Big Ten team has close to dominating the Big Ten like this years Wisconsin team since the 2009 PSU team Look at hitting percentage for and against Wisconsin DOMINATED Look at percentage of points vs common opposition for Wisconsin, Mn, Neb, PSU and Ohio State It is a ridiculous percentage difference Just a truly special season compared to the other teams in BIG do not compare them to PSU 2009 because they smoked Rutgers, A crippled Purdue and Minnesota, and Michigan State. Like other people are saying I do think that Wisconsin would have won the big ten title if they played a full schedule but can’t compare them at all to that penn state squad. They didn’t play Ohio State, Nebraska, or Penn state. Come on now. Seriously, who cares? One team you mention wasn't on the schedule, one team we cancelled on because we didn't want to get them sick, and one team cancelled on us because they were sick. You forget that Minnesota also cancelled one match on us because they were sick and injured. You will say that Purdue didn't have Cleveland, or Minnesota didn't have it's libero or setter. This conveniently leaves out the fact that UW has played without Hilley, or Haggerty or Civita or Loberg. You will say, "Well, they are not as important." And I will say, "Well, duh, that's the whole point!" The badgers don't depend on one player. That's exactly what makes them better than everyone else this year. Show me one piece of evidence that Neb and PSU would have gone 3 of 4 against UW, and I would give this position credence. Otherwise, it's just the same argument that gets thrown up by privileged programs year-in year-out when the schedule doesn't favor them and they lose. It's just complaining. It's just excuses to protect an image. If the badger's lose tomorrow, you might have a point.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2021 23:22:02 GMT -5
do not compare them to PSU 2009 because they smoked Rutgers, A crippled Purdue and Minnesota, and Michigan State. Like other people are saying I do think that Wisconsin would have won the big ten title if they played a full schedule but can’t compare them at all to that penn state squad. They didn’t play Ohio State, Nebraska, or Penn state. Come on now. Seriously, who cares? One team you mention wasn't on the schedule, one team we cancelled on because we didn't want to get them sick, and one team cancelled on us because they were sick. You forget that Minnesota also cancelled one match on us because they were sick and injured. You will say that Purdue didn't have Cleveland, or Minnesota didn't have it's libero or setter. This conveniently leaves out the fact that UW has played without Hilley, or Haggerty or Civita or Loberg. You will say, "Well, they are not as important." And I will say, "Well, duh, that's the whole point!" The badgers don't depend on one player. That's exactly what makes them better than everyone else this year. Show me one piece of evidence that Neb and PSU would have gone 3 of 4 against UW, and I would give this position credence. Otherwise, it's just the same argument that gets thrown up by privileged programs year-in year-out when the schedule doesn't favor them and they lose. It's just complaining. It's just excuses to protect an image. If the badger's lose tomorrow, you might have a point. it’s not Wisconsin’s fault at all obviously. I know they didn’t just try and get out of their hard games. I’m just saying calm down with comparison to 2009 PSU and the claims about how dominant the team has been in the big ten when all the teams they dominated are pretty bad or were missing impactful players
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Post by gibbyb1 on Apr 1, 2021 23:33:43 GMT -5
To be fair, they haven’t played the most challenging schedule. Beat the number 1 team (Massey) they could in conference by +20 points with a first team all American on bench while playing a setter who had never set a ball in college. Beat the number 3 (Massey) team they could play by +47 over 6 sets No Big Ten team has close to dominating the Big Ten like this years Wisconsin team since the 2009 PSU team Look at hitting percentage for and against Wisconsin DOMINATED Look at percentage of points vs common opposition for Wisconsin, Mn, Neb, PSU and Ohio State It is a ridiculous percentage difference Just a truly special season compared to the other teams in BIG Now add their 5 toughest matches. You’re trying to compare this season with history when this season is a historical anomaly, outlier, cluster f*^ck. NOBODY is denying how good this team is, NOBODY, just that this season makes it impossible to make the comparisons to other teams this year or any other.
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Post by badgerbreath on Apr 1, 2021 23:35:04 GMT -5
Seriously, who cares? One team you mention wasn't on the schedule, one team we cancelled on because we didn't want to get them sick, and one team cancelled on us because they were sick. You forget that Minnesota also cancelled one match on us because they were sick and injured. You will say that Purdue didn't have Cleveland, or Minnesota didn't have it's libero or setter. This conveniently leaves out the fact that UW has played without Hilley, or Haggerty or Civita or Loberg. You will say, "Well, they are not as important." And I will say, "Well, duh, that's the whole point!" The badgers don't depend on one player. That's exactly what makes them better than everyone else this year. Show me one piece of evidence that Neb and PSU would have gone 3 of 4 against UW, and I would give this position credence. Otherwise, it's just the same argument that gets thrown up by privileged programs year-in year-out when the schedule doesn't favor them and they lose. It's just complaining. It's just excuses to protect an image. If the badger's lose tomorrow, you might have a point. it’s not Wisconsin’s fault at all obviously. I know they didn’t just try and get out of their hard games. I’m just saying calm down with comparison to 2009 PSU and the claims about how dominant the team has been in the big ten when all the teams they dominated are pretty bad or were missing impactful players I'm not comparing them to PSU 2009. I'm not even sure how you do that given how the entire game has changed in the interim. But I have to push back on this idea, again, that the badgers owe their record to the loss of impactful players on opposing sides. They also have been impacted by absences, as well as month long shut-downs. It's had literally no effect. The basic strength of the badgers is that they have good replacements for everyone, except for Rettke, maybe -- even in that case I'm not so sure. Depth is an attribute.
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Post by gibbyb1 on Apr 1, 2021 23:37:45 GMT -5
do not compare them to PSU 2009 because they smoked Rutgers, A crippled Purdue and Minnesota, and Michigan State. Like other people are saying I do think that Wisconsin would have won the big ten title if they played a full schedule but can’t compare them at all to that penn state squad. They didn’t play Ohio State, Nebraska, or Penn state. Come on now. Seriously, who cares? One team you mention wasn't on the schedule, one team we cancelled on because we didn't want to get them sick, and one team cancelled on us because they were sick. You forget that Minnesota also cancelled one match on us because they were sick and injured. You will say that Purdue didn't have Cleveland, or Minnesota didn't have it's libero or setter. This conveniently leaves out the fact that UW has played without Hilley, or Haggerty or Civita or Loberg. You will say, "Well, they are not as important." And I will say, "Well, duh, that's the whole point!" The badgers don't depend on one player. That's exactly what makes them better than everyone else this year. Show me one piece of evidence that Neb and PSU would have gone 3 of 4 against UW, and I would give this position credence. Otherwise, it's just the same argument that gets thrown up by privileged programs year-in year-out when the schedule doesn't favor them and they lose. It's just complaining. It's just excuses to protect an image. If the badger's lose tomorrow, you might have a point. You’re asking us to show you evidence Wisconsin wouldnt have won , show us the evidence they would have! That’s the entire point, there isn’t any evidence. Show me where anyone isn’t giving credit to Wisconsin’s greatness or how they’ve proven themselves vs the opponents they could. Nobody is making an argument otherwise.
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Post by gibbyb1 on Apr 1, 2021 23:39:50 GMT -5
the reality is still the reality...no playing Minnie twice, no playing PSU, Neb nor OSU...and because of that, there is no legitimacy in saying they did anything more than win the games they did play & meet the B1G screwed up standard for title. More than 1/8th of their wins didn't even have them play to earn it. You can't say they dominated the Conference, b/c they didn't play the Conference. You can't say they demonstrated a level equal to some of the past NCs because they didn't even remotely play enough to make such comparisons enter the conversation. They are getting short changed in this wacky year where the entire sport got shortchanged. Asterisk season and while none of it is their fault, that fact doesn't change the outcome & the asterisk. The best part will be how I won't see an asterisk on that banner they raise next September at the Field House. I have zero objections to any of that, how the schedule played out and how Wisconsin played they won the league by how the league defined it.
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Post by badgerbreath on Apr 1, 2021 23:55:55 GMT -5
Seriously, who cares? One team you mention wasn't on the schedule, one team we cancelled on because we didn't want to get them sick, and one team cancelled on us because they were sick. You forget that Minnesota also cancelled one match on us because they were sick and injured. You will say that Purdue didn't have Cleveland, or Minnesota didn't have it's libero or setter. This conveniently leaves out the fact that UW has played without Hilley, or Haggerty or Civita or Loberg. You will say, "Well, they are not as important." And I will say, "Well, duh, that's the whole point!" The badgers don't depend on one player. That's exactly what makes them better than everyone else this year. Show me one piece of evidence that Neb and PSU would have gone 3 of 4 against UW, and I would give this position credence. Otherwise, it's just the same argument that gets thrown up by privileged programs year-in year-out when the schedule doesn't favor them and they lose. It's just complaining. It's just excuses to protect an image. If the badger's lose tomorrow, you might have a point. You’re asking us to show you evidence Wisconsin wouldnt have won , show us the evidence they would have! That’s the entire point, there isn’t any evidence. Show me where anyone isn’t giving credit to Wisconsin’s greatness or how they’ve proven themselves vs the opponents they could. Nobody is making an argument otherwise. The onus should probably be on you to prove that the conference tables don't lie, but the topline attack and defensive stats for shared opponents really aren't that close. You have to calculate it separately for Minn and Neb because the shared opponents aren't the same. The situation for OSU PSU and Purdue is far worse so I'm leaving them out. This doesn't include the UW and Neb matches against Minn, because there were unequal matches and sets. UW NEB DIFFHP 0.342 0.277 0.075OPP HP 0.128 0.131 -0.003DIFF 0.214 0.147 0.078
UW Minn DIFF
HP 0.359 0.258 0.101 OPP 0.126 0.166 -0.040 DIFF 0.233 0.092 0.141
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Post by badgerbreath on Apr 2, 2021 0:00:05 GMT -5
The point I'm making is that if you claim the conference tables lie, then you have to bring evidence to support that position. That should be a principle with which we all agree. I loss to Michigan tomorrow would make me wonder, but as of right now I see nothing to contradict the league table, as frustrating as the season has been re schedules.
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Post by gibbyb1 on Apr 2, 2021 0:02:41 GMT -5
You’re asking us to show you evidence Wisconsin wouldnt have won , show us the evidence they would have! That’s the entire point, there isn’t any evidence. Show me where anyone isn’t giving credit to Wisconsin’s greatness or how they’ve proven themselves vs the opponents they could. Nobody is making an argument otherwise. The onus should probably be on you to prove that the conference tables don't lie, but the topline attack and defensive stats for shared opponents really aren't that close. You have to calculate it separately for Minn and Neb because the shared opponents aren't the same. The situation for OSU PSU and Purdue is far worse so I'm leaving them out. This doesn't include the UW and Neb matches against Minn, because there were unequal matches and sets. UW NEB DIFFHP 0.342 0.277 0.075OPP HP 0.128 0.131 -0.003DIFF 0.214 0.147 0.078
UW Minn DIFF
HP 0.359 0.258 0.101 OPP 0.126 0.166 -0.040 DIFF 0.233 0.092 0.141You’re arguing hypotheticals that are normally proved on the court. They weren’t, through nobodies fault
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Post by gibbyb1 on Apr 2, 2021 0:07:26 GMT -5
The point I'm making is that if you claim the conference tables lie, then you have to bring evidence to support that position. That should be a principle with which we all agree. I loss to Michigan tomorrow would make me wonder, but as of right now I see nothing to contradict the league table, as frustrating as the season has been re schedules. [ What if they didn’t lose to Michigan tomorrow but then played Nebraska twice, PSU twice then Minnesota? Nobody is taking anything away from what Wisconsin has done amd I mean nobody. Additionally you want credit for what they didn’t do. I’ll say it again, it’s not binary. You can celebrate their greatness and accomplishments AND acknowledge the inequality of the schedule through no part of their own.
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Post by Resident Bitchy Canadian Fan on Apr 2, 2021 0:19:55 GMT -5
Did Wisconsin deserve their title? 100%. Was there a clear difference in their scheduled matches played (in terms of difficulty) and other top teams? Yes, but that isn’t Wisconsin’s fault. I think most people knew coming into this season that conference championships had the chance to be greatly affected by covid cancellations (FYI I still think Wisconsin wins if there were no covid cancellations, but not undefeated).. We just have to hope the tournament isn’t greatly affected by covid
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Post by bucky415 on Apr 2, 2021 4:55:17 GMT -5
Congrats to the Badgers on the title. I hope they can avoid a let down tomorrow against a Michigan team that has just had a rough year but is talented.
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Post by TuesdayGone on Apr 2, 2021 5:21:43 GMT -5
Did Wisconsin deserve their title? 100%. Was there a clear difference in their scheduled matches played (in terms of difficulty) and other top teams? Yes, but that isn’t Wisconsin’s fault. I think most people knew coming into this season that conference championships had the chance to be greatly affected by covid cancellations (FYI I still think Wisconsin wins if there were no covid cancellations, but not undefeated).. We just have to hope the tournament isn’t greatly affected by covid Wisconsin played a more difficult schedule than Nebraska.
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