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Post by ilprepsvb on Jul 19, 2023 15:52:13 GMT -5
I gotta imagine no athletic department is happy with the investigations right now. Not saying it’s right, but some form of hazing probably happens in every athletic department in the country. And again, that isn’t right and shouldn’t be the case, but I have a hard time it’s limited to Northwestern.
Could be a field day for attorneys if they go looking into other institutions or or more people feel comfortable to come forward now.
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Post by Not Me on Jul 19, 2023 16:18:48 GMT -5
I gotta imagine no athletic department is happy with the investigations right now. Not saying it’s right, but some form of hazing probably happens in every athletic department in the country. And again, that isn’t right and shouldn’t be the case, but I have a hard time it’s limited to Northwestern. Could be a field day for attorneys if they go looking into other institutions or or more people feel comfortable to come forward now. But there are degrees of everything. At some schools the hazing consists of the freshmen having to sing or carry the seniors equipment or setting up the nets. At some schools the hazing is (allegedly but probably) directed and encouraged by the coach, involves nudity and sexual abuse, and is physically abusive. Hopefully athletes do feel empowered to come out about hazing and what they have endured. |
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Post by vb on Jul 19, 2023 17:16:38 GMT -5
Acknowledging that some form of hazing, even if it’s freshman carrying the bags, goes on everywhere/I’m wondering how does a coach keep his job? Simply, documented reported to the A.D. …he’s off the hook forever?
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Post by volleyguy on Jul 19, 2023 17:25:03 GMT -5
Acknowledging that some form of hazing, even if it’s freshman carrying the bags, goes on everywhere/I’m wondering how does a coach keep his job? Simply, documented reported to the A.D. …he’s off the hook forever? Any entity or person limits their liability by "doing the right thing" which includes being aware of the policy (or knowing what the "right thing to do" is), explaining it to their athletes or staff, encouraging an environment where reporting is comfortable and acceptable, reacting appropriately if it ever becomes an issue, and acting decisively if and when it does happens. It sounds complicated, but it's fairly easy to prove whether or not you knew something happened. What gets most people in trouble is not responding appropriately when they become aware that there is or might be a problem. |
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Post by vb on Jul 19, 2023 18:10:26 GMT -5
Sorry… can you break it down even further. Most of us are not of legal minds
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Post by ballvolley on Jul 20, 2023 1:25:35 GMT -5
Attorney for the accusers Crump stated (regarding the softball team):
“…seemed to be as toxic as the football program. It was really deplorable. These were young girls who were not even of age yet and they were preyed upon from Day 1, in their words.”
This was reported in The Athletic.
These are serious allegations prior to an investigation having taken place. The statement also comes with (incredibly thinly veiled) homophobia that is damaging to female coaches and female athletes who, in 2023, still have to fight the current of stereotypes and discrimination. No other material details were provided by Crump, allowing the public to fill in wide gaps and jump to conclusions, and this immediately pegs the staff and other student athletes in the most negative light. It’s sloppy journalism, not to mention the attorney is grandstanding in an effort to get the court of public opinion to make a fast decision in his clients’ favor.
Hazing or bullying or any other form of cruel or discriminatory behavior is wrong, full stop. But broad accusations, without delivered without proof in the most performative manner are also very dangerous and damaging.
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Post by volleyguy on Jul 20, 2023 3:06:48 GMT -5
Sorry… can you break it down even further. Most of us are not of legal minds It’s really hard to say anything definitive without knowing details, and no one knows ALL the details, not even the University. But generally, it is not that difficult to fire someone for cause (which means for a valid, legal reason) if there is evidence that something bad happened to a student-athlete and a coach/employee knew about it and didn’t do “the right thing”. There’s a lot of leeway there for the school to say, you should have done this or that. Also, most coach contracts have a requirement or clause that says they can be terminated for damaging the school’s image or reputation (a morals clause). It’s even easier for a private school to do it (versus a public one), which is the case here. It doesn’t matter that they decided to suspend the coach, and then fired him as long as there is evidence to justify the action (to establish cause). In fact, they can argue that it proves they weren’t being unfair to him, but the circumstances were too bad to keep him. As far as the other allegations about other programs, the principle is the same but whether there is any evidence is completely unclear. |
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Post by Gladys Kravitz on Jul 20, 2023 14:06:48 GMT -5
Northwestern wants to deal with this quickly but it is not going to happen.
This is a PR disaster.
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Post by volleyaudience on Jul 20, 2023 14:19:54 GMT -5
Sorry… can you break it down even further. Most of us are not of legal minds It’s really hard to say anything definitive without knowing details, and no one knows ALL the details, not even the University. But generally, it is not that difficult to fire someone for cause (which means for a valid, legal reason) if there is evidence that something bad happened to a student-athlete and a coach/employee knew about it and didn’t do “the right thing”. There’s a lot of leeway there for the school to say, you should have done this or that. Also, most coach contracts have a requirement or clause that says they can be terminated for damaging the school’s image or reputation (a morals clause). It’s even easier for a private school to do it (versus a public one), which is the case here. It doesn’t matter that they decided to suspend the coach, and then fired him as long as there is evidence to justify the action (to establish cause). In fact, they can argue that it proves they weren’t being unfair to him, but the circumstances were too bad to keep him. As far as the other allegations about other programs, the principle is the same but whether there is any evidence is completely unclear. In my non legal and not informed opinion, the football case brings up a complex dilemma. Coach Fitz believes he did not know about this, is innocent and should keep his job. In my opinion, the school's position and cause is: It happened on your watch in the program you are responsible for. You should have known. You now can not go into homes and promise parents that you will protect their offspring. |
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Post by n00b on Jul 20, 2023 17:37:25 GMT -5
But generally, it is not that difficult to fire someone for cause From years of following the volleyball coaching world and along with national news stories around the college basketball and football coaching world, I don't think athletic departments agree with this. You almost never see coaches fired for cause. You'll get exposes in the student newspaper outlining abuse, and coaches will still get paid out so the university doesn't have to try to show cause. |
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Post by volleyguy on Jul 20, 2023 17:42:33 GMT -5
But generally, it is not that difficult to fire someone for cause From years of following the volleyball coaching world and along with national news stories around the college basketball and football coaching world, I don't think athletic departments agree with this. You almost never see coaches fired for cause. You'll get exposes in the student newspaper outlining abuse, and coaches will still get paid out so the university doesn't have to try to show cause. There are a lot of reasons for this, most of which have nothing to do with the issue of establishing cause. |
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Post by bbg95 on Jul 20, 2023 17:43:22 GMT -5
It’s really hard to say anything definitive without knowing details, and no one knows ALL the details, not even the University. But generally, it is not that difficult to fire someone for cause (which means for a valid, legal reason) if there is evidence that something bad happened to a student-athlete and a coach/employee knew about it and didn’t do “the right thing”. There’s a lot of leeway there for the school to say, you should have done this or that. Also, most coach contracts have a requirement or clause that says they can be terminated for damaging the school’s image or reputation (a morals clause). It’s even easier for a private school to do it (versus a public one), which is the case here. It doesn’t matter that they decided to suspend the coach, and then fired him as long as there is evidence to justify the action (to establish cause). In fact, they can argue that it proves they weren’t being unfair to him, but the circumstances were too bad to keep him. As far as the other allegations about other programs, the principle is the same but whether there is any evidence is completely unclear. In my non legal and not informed opinion, the football case brings up a complex dilemma. Coach Fitz believes he did not know about this, is innocent and should keep his job. In my opinion, the school's position and cause is: It happened on your watch in the program you are responsible for. You should have known. You now can not go into homes and promise parents that you will protect their offspring. Saying someone should have known something isn't the same as proving that they actually knew. And that wasn't Northwestern's position because their initial reaction was to give him a two-week suspension (basically a vacation) and call it a day. So it's hard to take them seriously now. Anyway, it's pretty clear that Fitzgerald had to go given the outcry. But I don't think Northwestern will get away with not paying him at least quite a bit of what they owe. Or they could take their chances in court, expose themselves to even more embarrassment during discovery and possibly lose the case anyway. |
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Post by vbnerd on Jul 20, 2023 21:43:42 GMT -5
The part that doesn't make sense is that JUST Fitzgerald and the baseball coach are being let go. The reports that past assistants took part and they are right next to the training room, so those people knew - that's part of the reasoning that Fitzgerald should have known. But the other people probably did know, and still have jobs.
I imagine down the road we'll find out that it was some version of Fitzgerald hearing a much tamer story and thought of his days and thought boys will be boys, and went out of his way to avoid knowing any more, so he wouldn't have to spoil the fun, but without supervision the "traditions" became more problemic over time.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 21, 2023 16:43:19 GMT -5
Attorney for the accusers Crump stated (regarding the softball team): “…seemed to be as toxic as the football program. It was really deplorable. These were young girls who were not even of age yet and they were preyed upon from Day 1, in their words.” At what age does it become OK to prey on women? |
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Post by widdledumpling on Jul 21, 2023 18:42:25 GMT -5
Attorney for the accusers Crump stated (regarding the softball team): “…seemed to be as toxic as the football program. It was really deplorable. These were young girls who were not even of age yet and they were preyed upon from Day 1, in their words.” At what age does it become OK to prey on women? There’s nothing in that sentence that suggests there is an appropriate age, just that it’s especially tragic when it happens to children |
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