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Post by widdledumpling on Jul 21, 2023 18:42:25 GMT -5
Attorney for the accusers Crump stated (regarding the softball team): “…seemed to be as toxic as the football program. It was really deplorable. These were young girls who were not even of age yet and they were preyed upon from Day 1, in their words.” At what age does it become OK to prey on women? There’s nothing in that sentence that suggests there is an appropriate age, just that it’s especially tragic when it happens to children |
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 21, 2023 19:01:30 GMT -5
At what age does it become OK to prey on women? There’s nothing in that sentence that suggests there is an appropriate age, just that it’s especially tragic when it happens to children First of all, college students are not "children". But also, if it is "especially tragic" if it happens to younger women, is that not the same as saying it is less tragic if it happens to older women? Is it worse if it happens to freshmen than if if happens to seniors? I think not. So why write a sentence that implies that it is? |
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Post by widdledumpling on Jul 21, 2023 19:12:37 GMT -5
There’s nothing in that sentence that suggests there is an appropriate age, just that it’s especially tragic when it happens to children First of all, college students are not "children". But also, if it is "especially tragic" if it happens to younger women, is that not the same as saying it is less tragic if it happens to older women? Is it worse if it happens to freshmen than if if happens to seniors? I think not. So why write a sentence that implies that it is? College students can be children. Legally, any college student 17 years old and younger is a child. I remember being in college—there was no alchemy during the entrance ceremony that imparted me with adulthood. I’m also puzzled at how offended you are at the statement that child abuse is especially heinous. Having two legs cut off is worse than having one cut off, which I suppose technically makes having only one cut off “better,” but it would be a bit asinine to argue with someone who expressed pity that someone had both their legs cut off |
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 21, 2023 19:24:27 GMT -5
In your own words, there was no alchemy that happened on the day of my 18th birthday that imparted me with adulthood. But I would say that the day I stepped onto an airplane and flew, alone, to a city thousands of miles away from my family, was a watershed moment in my transition to adulthood.
And if it matters to this discussion, the age of consent in Illinois is 17. Not 18. But the core issue we are talking about is not consensual activity, it is coerced activity. So I don't think the age particularly matters.
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Post by widdledumpling on Jul 21, 2023 19:48:30 GMT -5
In your own words, there was no alchemy that happened on the day of my 18th birthday that imparted me with adulthood. But I would say that the day I stepped onto an airplane and flew, alone, to a city thousands of miles away from my family, was a watershed moment in my transition to adulthood. And if it matters to this discussion, the age of consent in Illinois is 17. Not 18. But the core issue we are talking about is not consensual activity, it is coerced activity. So I don't think the age particularly matters. Luckily for this discussion, I was a freshman varsity volleyball player, and later a senior, though not a player. As a freshman I ran into the bathroom crying mid-practice, feeling puny and helpless before my older teammates. As a senior, I rolled my eyes when my fellow college students tried to order me around. They’re different periods of life Also, I remain puzzled how it’s offensive to say that child abuse is especially tragic |
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Post by tablealgebra on Jul 21, 2023 22:55:20 GMT -5
In your own words, there was no alchemy that happened on the day of my 18th birthday that imparted me with adulthood. But I would say that the day I stepped onto an airplane and flew, alone, to a city thousands of miles away from my family, was a watershed moment in my transition to adulthood. And if it matters to this discussion, the age of consent in Illinois is 17. Not 18. But the core issue we are talking about is not consensual activity, it is coerced activity. So I don't think the age particularly matters. Luckily for this discussion, I was a freshman varsity volleyball player, and later a senior, though not a player. As a freshman I ran into the bathroom crying mid-practice, feeling puny and helpless before my older teammates. As a senior, I rolled my eyes when my fellow college students tried to order me around. They’re different periods of life Also, I remain puzzled how it’s offensive to say that child abuse is especially tragic When's the last time you ever heard about abuse of a young man over the age of 16 and they said "and they were not even of age yet". Like, maybe that's said but it's not done the same way as it is for/to women. The tragedy of hazing is that it's people who are juniors/seniors perpetrating it against freshmen, whether or not they are 17 or 18 years of age. The whole "of age" comment is lawyerly opportunism, because to be a hotshot civil rights lawyer you have to stay in the news and you do that through explosive press conferences, not by being an effective lawyer (though I'm not necessarily saying Crump is a bad lawyer - it's just not the reason he stays in the news) Also, people in America treat the cutoff between girls being 17 and 18 really ... creepily, in my opinion. There's not really much difference, no? |
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Post by widdledumpling on Jul 21, 2023 23:09:37 GMT -5
Luckily for this discussion, I was a freshman varsity volleyball player, and later a senior, though not a player. As a freshman I ran into the bathroom crying mid-practice, feeling puny and helpless before my older teammates. As a senior, I rolled my eyes when my fellow college students tried to order me around. They’re different periods of life Also, I remain puzzled how it’s offensive to say that child abuse is especially tragic When's the last time you ever heard about abuse of a young man over the age of 16 and they said "and they were not even of age yet". Like, maybe that's said but it's not done the same way as it is for/to women. The tragedy of hazing is that it's people who are juniors/seniors perpetrating it against freshmen, whether or not they are 17 or 18 years of age. The whole "of age" comment is lawyerly opportunism, because to be a hotshot civil rights lawyer you have to stay in the news and you do that through explosive press conferences, not by being an effective lawyer (though I'm not necessarily saying Crump is a bad lawyer - it's just not the reason he stays in the news) Also, people in America treat the cutoff between girls being 17 and 18 really ... creepily, in my opinion. There's not really much difference, no? I don’t disagree. My main points of disagreement were 1) that mentioning (for pathos) that the victims were underage implies that it’s okay to abuse adult women and 2) saying “abuse against minors is especially concerning” is somehow implying that abuse isn’t concerning when the victim is older |
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 21, 2023 23:13:02 GMT -5
You yourself said it was "especially tragic" if it happens to younger victims, which absolutely does imply that it is less tragic if it happens to older victims. It can't be more tragic for some without being less tragic for others.
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Post by widdledumpling on Jul 21, 2023 23:31:40 GMT -5
You yourself said it was "especially tragic" if it happens to younger victims, which absolutely does imply that it is less tragic if it happens to older victims. It can't be more tragic for some without being less tragic for others. Sure, it does imply that. The same way I stated above that if you get all four limbs amputated it’s especially tragic, but that it would be very strange to object to someone who said that by saying “so you’re saying having just one limb amputated is less tragic???” With the implication, I suppose, that the original speaker thinks that things that are less tragic aren’t tragic at all. Something being “less tragic” doesn’t mean it’s “not tragic”, or that it’s WAY less tragic, or that it’s not of concern Edit: ironically, I think this post is hijacking the thread and distracting from the abuse these athletes may have suffered, so I’ll leave it to y’all to post any updates that actually shed light on the situation. For the athletes’ sake, I hope it’s just lawyerly posturing and didn’t actually happen, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it did |
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 21, 2023 23:41:07 GMT -5
Your counter-example is not the same thing at all.
What you are arguing in the hazing case is that the difference in the severity of the harm is because of the victim's age, and then you justify it by considering a hypothetical where the difference in the severity of the harm is because of a difference in the severity of the harm.
I am just pulling the challenge card here on the idea that seniors are "tougher" and that abuse directed to them is not as bad as abuse directed to freshmen.
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Post by widdledumpling on Jul 21, 2023 23:54:25 GMT -5
Your counter-example is not the same thing at all. What you are arguing in the hazing case is that the difference in the severity of the harm is because of the victim's age, and then you justify it by considering a hypothetical where the difference in the severity of the harm is because of a difference in the severity of the harm. I am just pulling the challenge card here on the idea that seniors are "tougher" and that abuse directed to them is not as bad as abuse directed to freshmen. No, the “point” of the analogy wasn’t to convince you that it’s more concerning when children are abused. It’s obvious you don’t think so and it’s just a difference of opinion we have. It’s to point out that it would be extremely odd in conversation to attack someone who thinks that a victim’s situation is especially tragic by saying “so you’re saying another, hypothetical victim’s different situation is less tragic??” An analogy you might like better: if a young person died and I said “oh, that’s so tragic. They had their whole life ahead of them” it would be weird for someone to be like “oh, so you’re saying it’s less tragic when old people die, because they don’t have their whole lives ahead of them??” |
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jul 22, 2023 0:08:16 GMT -5
Rumor I heard was that the law firm who did the investigation told the new AD that the complaint was baseless and that they should make it worthwhile for the coaching staff to stay and not sue the university for what they had to endure during the AD selection fiasco. This would be bizarre advice to give. A claim out of the AD selection fiasco while a complaint is investigated? Questionable. |
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 22, 2023 3:32:40 GMT -5
No, the “point” of the analogy wasn’t to convince you that it’s more concerning when children are abused. It’s obvious you don’t think so and it’s just a difference of opinion we have. I was not going to repeat myself, but I decided that this misrepresents my opinion enough that it was worth doing so. I do not believe college students are children. I have actually said nothing about the abuse of children and whether I think it is worse than the abuse of adults. IMO, we are not talking about children at all. |
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Post by n00b on Jul 22, 2023 9:34:55 GMT -5
No, the “point” of the analogy wasn’t to convince you that it’s more concerning when children are abused. It’s obvious you don’t think so and it’s just a difference of opinion we have. I was not going to repeat myself, but I decided that this misrepresents my opinion enough that it was worth doing so. I do not believe college students are children. I have actually said nothing about the abuse of children and whether I think it is worse than the abuse of adults. IMO, we are not talking about children at all. Mike, what in the world are you going on about? Yes, it is worse to haze/abuse younger people because they are less mature and less likely to stand up for themselves, both emotionally and physically. No, there is not a magic moment when an individual CAN do this, but your ability to stand up to a bully increases with age. |
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Post by JT on Jul 22, 2023 16:40:01 GMT -5
Yes, it is worse to haze/abuse younger people because they are less mature and less likely to stand up for themselves, both emotionally and physically. No, there is not a magic moment when an individual CAN do this, but your ability to stand up to a bully increases with age. (I probably shouldn’t, but…) This, up to a point. Which is why “elder abuse” also exists as a term for behavior considered (by most) to be more egregious. |
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