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Post by volleyguy on Jul 24, 2023 11:50:55 GMT -5
Why would you have your players in charge of the punishment... When the captains are 22-year-old adults? I don't think this is as uncommon as you think. The team having ownership over expectations and consequences isn't a bad thing. Also, it doesn't sound like an abnormal punishment for a coach to have handed out anyway. Assuming the description is true, I think it is clearly not in step with the current NCAA (and societal) definition of hazing: ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/ssi/other/SSI_hazingpreventionhandbook.pdf |
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Post by n00b on Jul 24, 2023 11:57:13 GMT -5
When the captains are 22-year-old adults? I don't think this is as uncommon as you think. The team having ownership over expectations and consequences isn't a bad thing. Also, it doesn't sound like an abnormal punishment for a coach to have handed out anyway. Assuming the description is true, I think it is clearly not in step with the current NCAA (and societal) definition of hazing: ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/ssi/other/SSI_hazingpreventionhandbook.pdfYou just linked a 63 page document. Can you point out what in there would classify this as hazing? |
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Post by Norah Sus on Jul 24, 2023 11:58:33 GMT -5
You just linked a 27 page document. Can you point out what in there would classify this as hazing? “…not in step with…” |
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Post by robtearle on Jul 24, 2023 12:04:06 GMT -5
One more note on the timing:
Back on page 1 of this very thread, there's a repost of a tweet that Northwestern player Alana Walker made on March 18, putting the tweet after the Wisconsin forfeits but before the Indiana forfeits. The tweet was in response to a tweet saying "Kick 'em out", meaning NW volleyball and out of the B1G for the rest of the season.
Walker replied "kick us out? let’s not assume. we have NOT postponed our last handful of games due to covid. they were for other reasons. we are not irresponsible. we take volleyball and covid as serious as everyone else in the big ten."
So whatever was going on, between this tweet and the forfeits and Davis having been AWOL from the bench for however many matches it was, it sure seems to me that it has to be about a whole lot more than one player having to do some extra running for catching COVID or violating a team protocol, etc.
(and no, I'm not condoning that as a punishment; but then I'm a runner at my core, so I have trouble even seeing extra running as a punishment in the first place :-)
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Post by volleyguy on Jul 24, 2023 12:08:26 GMT -5
You just linked a 63 page document. Can you point out what in there would classify this as hazing? It has a table of contents. If your goal is to make a simplistic conclusion about appropriateness, this is probably not the right example to use, |
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Post by n00b on Jul 24, 2023 12:15:23 GMT -5
One more note on the timing: Back on page 1 of this very thread, there's a repost of a tweet that Northwestern player Alana Walker made on March 18, putting the tweet after the Wisconsin forfeits but before the Indiana forfeits. The tweet was in response to a tweet saying "Kick 'em out", meaning NW volleyball and out of the B1G for the rest of the season. Walker replied "kick us out? let’s not assume. we have NOT postponed our last handful of games due to covid. they were for other reasons. we are not irresponsible. we take volleyball and covid as serious as everyone else in the big ten." So whatever was going on, between this tweet and the forfeits and Davis having been AWOL from the bench for however many matches it was, it sure seems to me that it has to be about a whole lot more than one player having to do some extra running for catching COVID or violating a team protocol, etc. Interesting. My take is that is EXACTLY what it was for because the athlete made a hazing complaint about the extra running so the university took it very seriously. |
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Post by badgerbreath on Jul 24, 2023 12:17:42 GMT -5
I hate running. Off with their heads!
Seriously though, running extra suicides doesn’t seem crazy on its face, but you could see how it could easily be taken too far. I think that’s what it will all be about. The coaching staff didn’t step in when a line was crossed. It maybe was associated with some degradation. Maybe there was an injury at the same time.
EDIT: If the player followed protocol and got sick anyway, then running suicides would clearly be an arbitrary hazing action rather than an attempt to instill discipline and accountability for actions. It may come down to whether the coaches and team actually believed protocol was broken or not.
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Post by haterade on Jul 24, 2023 12:19:19 GMT -5
Page 11
Simply defined, hazing is:
• Any act committed against a student who is trying to join a new
group that is humiliating or
demeaning, or endangers the
student’s health and safety.
• Hazing can occur regardless of CONSENT or WILLINGNESS to participate. If you chose
not to take part but knew what was going on, you are part of the problem!
NW is specifically mentioned in the file with other schools and their definition. Page 39
Northwestern University Hazing Prevention Program
“Positive Purple Pride”
Northwestern University forbids hazing and all other activities that interfere with the personal liberty of an individual. The University defines hazing as any action taken or situation created, whether on or off University premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment,
harassment, or ridicule for the purpose of initiation into, affiliation with, admission to, or as a condition for continued membership in a group, team, club, or other organization.
I'm sure the athletes lawyers will argue that this was embarrassing and caused physical discomfort and for the purpose of continued membership in the team. Whether or not the alleged incident met these definitions is apparently going to be decided in court.
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Post by n00b on Jul 24, 2023 12:23:05 GMT -5
Page 11 Simply defined, hazing is: • Any act committed against a student who is trying to join a new group that is humiliating or demeaning, or endangers the student’s health and safety. • Hazing can occur regardless of CONSENT or WILLINGNESS to participate. If you chose not to take part but knew what was going on, you are part of the problem! NW is specifically mentioned in the file with other schools and their definition. Page 39 Northwestern University Hazing Prevention Program “Positive Purple Pride” Northwestern University forbids hazing and all other activities that interfere with the personal liberty of an individual. The University defines hazing as any action taken or situation created, whether on or off University premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule for the purpose of initiation into, affiliation with, admission to, or as a condition for continued membership in a group, team, club, or other organization. I'm sure the athletes lawyers will argue that this was embarrassing and caused physical discomfort and for the purpose of continued membership in the team. Whether or not the alleged incident met these definitions is apparently going to be decided in court. All conditioning is mental and physical discomfort as a condition for continued membership on the team. Seems like a bad definition. |
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Post by robtearle on Jul 24, 2023 12:25:58 GMT -5
One more note on the timing: Back on page 1 of this very thread, there's a repost of a tweet that Northwestern player Alana Walker made on March 18, putting the tweet after the Wisconsin forfeits but before the Indiana forfeits. The tweet was in response to a tweet saying "Kick 'em out", meaning NW volleyball and out of the B1G for the rest of the season. Walker replied "kick us out? let’s not assume. we have NOT postponed our last handful of games due to covid. they were for other reasons. we are not irresponsible. we take volleyball and covid as serious as everyone else in the big ten." So whatever was going on, between this tweet and the forfeits and Davis having been AWOL from the bench for however many matches it was, it sure seems to me that it has to be about a whole lot more than one player having to do some extra running for catching COVID or violating a team protocol, etc. Interesting. My take is that is EXACTLY what it was for because the athlete made a hazing complaint about the extra running so the university took it very seriously. But if it's only about one player unhappy or benched or whatever, you don't forfeit (at least) two weeks in a row; you play down a player. And the coach isn't missing from the bench (unless he had COVID, and nobody ever got around to saying that.) I dunno. But I've been wondering 'what the heck' for more than two years now. |
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Post by badgerbreath on Jul 24, 2023 12:30:08 GMT -5
Interesting. My take is that is EXACTLY what it was for because the athlete made a hazing complaint about the extra running so the university took it very seriously. But if it's only about one player unhappy or benched or whatever, you don't forfeit (at least) two weeks in a row; you play down a player. And the coach isn't missing from the bench (unless he had COVID, and nobody ever got around to saying that.) I dunno. But I've been wondering 'what the heck' for more than two years now. You may be underestimating university bureaucracy and it’s fear of lawsuits. |
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Post by BadgerAce42 on Jul 24, 2023 12:33:22 GMT -5
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Post by pittsburgh7717 on Jul 24, 2023 12:47:57 GMT -5
Making everyone watch is where I would draw the line between a normal punishment & hazing.
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Post by n00b on Jul 24, 2023 12:55:08 GMT -5
But if it's only about one player unhappy or benched or whatever, you don't forfeit (at least) two weeks in a row; you play down a player. And the coach isn't missing from the bench (unless he had COVID, and nobody ever got around to saying that.) I dunno. But I've been wondering 'what the heck' for more than two years now. You may be underestimating university bureaucracy and it’s fear of lawsuits. My thoughts exactly. The university may have correctly identified this athlete as somebody likely to file a lawsuit. |
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Post by robtearle on Jul 24, 2023 13:00:51 GMT -5
You may be underestimating university bureaucracy and it’s fear of lawsuits. My thoughts exactly. The university may have correctly identified this athlete as somebody likely to file a lawsuit. But how/why does that translate into forfeits? And - to go the other way - why only two weeks of forfeits but not the full remainder of the season? After the forfeit weekends, they played two-game series against Minnesota and Maryland. |
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