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Post by greatlakesvballer on May 19, 2022 11:54:54 GMT -5
Is that a disagreement? You feel like Wisconsin was better off having John Cook hired away? Pete Waite did a pretty darn good job for a good number of years. He also recruited Lauren Carlini.
IU's situation with Aird is not similar to that one.
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Post by slxpress on May 19, 2022 12:01:41 GMT -5
Is that a disagreement? You feel like Wisconsin was better off having John Cook hired away? The point is that "the Pete Waite years" at Wisconsin were not a single entity, and in this context don't really apply in any 'useful' way to Indiana and Steve Aird. Pete Waite did a pretty darn good job for a good number of years. You and I have had respectful exchanges, and I appreciate that. I’m unconvinced you’re following the conversation. The dialogue I was having started with “things can’t be all that great at Indiana if they keep having issues building a successful program in the first place.” I made the point it’s all about finding the right coach and keeping them. Phaedrus replied that finding the right coach and keeping them are the same thing. That’s the specific context for my reply. They are not the same thing. The Pete Waite years are what they are. He inherited an amazing program at Wisconsin and by the time he was fired it wasn’t a great program any more. Frankly, it was a bit of a train wreck. Sheffield comes along and restores it to greatness immediately. If Sheffield gets hired away by someone and Wisconsin has to go through this exercise again, that’s an issue. Look at Indiana basketball. They’ve spent 3 decades wandering in the wilderness. The other blue bloods don’t even consider them blue bloods any more. In all likelihood they had the right coach in Kelvin Sampson but couldn’t keep him because of his recruiting violations of contacting recruits in impermissible ways. Then you have Notre Dame football, which finally found a guy who could make them nationally relevant on a consistent basis for the first time since Lou Holtz, and in an unprecedented move, lose him to LSU. Now they start over. Same thing with OU and Lincoln Riley. If you can’t keep John Cook from taking the job at Nebraska you run the risk of going 5 years with a losing conference record and missing the tournament each year. Which is exactly what happened despite Waite’s initial successes. Same kind of thing happened at Illinois when Bruce Weber took over for Bill Self. Again, the point is keeping the right coach is as fundamentally important as getting the coach. Not sure how Waite having success at first only to turn Wisconsin volleyball into a dumpster fire addresses that. |
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Post by slxpress on May 19, 2022 12:05:10 GMT -5
Pete Waite did a pretty darn good job for a good number of years. He also recruited Lauren Carlini.
IU's situation with Aird is not similar to that one.
Holy hell. I’m not comparing Pete Waite and Wisconsin to Indiana and Aird. I’m saying that a great program has to both find the right coach and keep them. Indiana is not only going to have to find the right coach - which they obviously haven’t yet. They will also have to then keep them, which is another set of challenges. One I’m sure they’d aspire to at this point, but a challenge nonetheless. |
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Post by robtearle on May 19, 2022 12:08:40 GMT -5
Pete Waite did a pretty darn good job for a good number of years. He also recruited Lauren Carlini.
IU's situation with Aird is not similar to that one.
Most if not all of the 'key' players on the 2013 NCAA finalist team were Waite recruits/players. That isn't to say Sheffield didn't have *plenty* to do with getting them to the finals, obviously he did. Last year after winning the championship, Sheffield had nothing but good things to say about those players and coached who came before him and how they all helped get Wisconsin to the point they could win a championship. And that certainly and specifically included Waite. To mention Waite as being in any way relevant or comparable in a discussion of Steve Aird is a BIG-TIME insult to Waite. |
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Post by slxpress on May 19, 2022 12:10:57 GMT -5
If USC could have figured out a way to keep Jerritt Elliott when he was the interim head coach rather than giving the job back to Mick Haley, they’d be in a much better place right now. Wait, what? USC’s current state of affairs is on Donna Heinel’s back and a corrupt USC athletic dept and administration. So much could have happened since 2002, who’s to say Jerritt would have gotten along with that b*tch? . And USC was good enough to have made Final Four’s and at least the Regional Final is over half of those years. Mick was by no means without flaws, but he kept USC competitive and could rebound quickly from less than standard years, which still weren’t even missing the tournament. Whatever success USC has experienced has always seemed to come in spite of the incompetence in the athletic department, going back to the days of Mike Garrett. Mick Haley was an outstanding coach. No criticism implied or intended. But some of Jerritt Elliott’s skills in managing the people around him would have been good for USC in the intervening years since USC’s heyday and where they are now. It wasn’t really feasible to keep Elliott on once Haley returned. Nonetheless, my point is if Elliott had been the coach for USC during all this time, USC would not be in their current situation as a program. |
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Post by slxpress on May 19, 2022 12:14:37 GMT -5
He also recruited Lauren Carlini.
IU's situation with Aird is not similar to that one.
Most if not all of the 'key' players on the 2013 NCAA finalist team were Waite recruits/players. That isn't to say Sheffield didn't have *plenty* to do with getting them to the finals, obviously he did. Last year after winning the championship, Sheffield had nothing but good things to say about those players and coached who came before him and how they all helped get Wisconsin to the point they could win a championship. And that certainly and specifically included Waite. To mention Waite as being in any way relevant or comparable in a discussion of Steve Aird is a BIG-TIME insult to Waite. That is a very emotional. Could you please show me where I’m comparing Pete Waite and Wisconsin to Steve Aird and Indiana? I’m specifically addressing the assertion that finding the right coach and keeping the right coach is the same issue, when they are most certainly distinct issues. That is the ONLY context in which Pete Waite was brought up. Reading something else into it is not fair to me or what I posted at all. |
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Post by c4ndlelight on May 19, 2022 12:16:25 GMT -5
I still have to wonder how Dunbar would have been able to do if she were able to stay to coach for the opening of the new facilities and to actually coach the 2018 Recruiting class she brought in (which had 2 All-Big Ten pin hitters). I think she would have made the tourney at least once with them, esp. if she could use the new facilities and momentum to stack a few classes.
Probably wouldn't have been a Top 10 team but have to imagine they'd be a lot more competitive and stable - I don't think she was an All-World coach but she seemed to do alright recruiting once the facilities weren't embarrassing, and she did make a Sweet 16 the one year she had both talent and experience on the roster.
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Post by robtearle on May 19, 2022 12:27:19 GMT -5
Most if not all of the 'key' players on the 2013 NCAA finalist team were Waite recruits/players. That isn't to say Sheffield didn't have *plenty* to do with getting them to the finals, obviously he did. Last year after winning the championship, Sheffield had nothing but good things to say about those players and coached who came before him and how they all helped get Wisconsin to the point they could win a championship. And that certainly and specifically included Waite. To mention Waite as being in any way relevant or comparable in a discussion of Steve Aird is a BIG-TIME insult to Waite. That is a very emotional. Could you please show me where I’m comparing Pete Waite and Wisconsin to Steve Aird and Indiana? I’m specifically addressing the assertion that finding the right coach and keeping the right coach is the same issue, when they are most certainly distinct issues. That is the ONLY context in which Pete Waite was brought up. Reading something else into it is not fair to me or what I posted at all. "That is a very emotional." It sure as hell is! "...context in which Pete Waite was brought up..." I love the passive voice there. Brought up BY YOU! You used "the Pete Waite years" as a "bad example" in your rather pointless bit about "finding the right coach and keeping the right coach is the same issue" etc etc. He was NOT a "bad example"; he was NOT an example of "not the right coach". And if this isn't related to Steve Aird, why are you arguing it on a comment thread on Steve Aird? Maybe channeling Will Smith here would be appropriate - keep Pete Waite's name out your damm posts! |
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Post by slxpress on May 19, 2022 12:44:42 GMT -5
That is a very emotional. Could you please show me where I’m comparing Pete Waite and Wisconsin to Steve Aird and Indiana? I’m specifically addressing the assertion that finding the right coach and keeping the right coach is the same issue, when they are most certainly distinct issues. That is the ONLY context in which Pete Waite was brought up. Reading something else into it is not fair to me or what I posted at all. "That is a very emotional." It sure as hell is! "...context in which Pete Waite was brought up..." I love the passive voice there. Brought up BY YOU! You used "the Pete Waite years" as a "bad example" in your rather pointless bit about "finding the right coach and keeping the right coach is the same issue" etc etc. He was NOT a "bad example"; he was NOT an example of "not the right coach". And if this isn't related to Steve Aird, why are you arguing it on a comment thread on Steve Aird? Maybe channeling Will Smith here would be appropriate - keep Pete Waite's name out your damm posts! Are you Pete Waite’s buddy? Sure, I brought up Pete Waite and Wisconsin as a specific example of a program that would have been better off if they’d been able to keep their former coach. Period. The end. I stand by it. I haven’t done anything wrong here. Your insistence I have is not only not compelling to me, it doesn’t even make any sense to me. I’ve obviously made you very angry in a Will Smith sort of way, when I’m baffled as to how I’ve done that. |
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Post by AmeriCanVBfan on May 19, 2022 12:47:47 GMT -5
Maybe channeling Will Smith here would be appropriate - keep Pete Waite's name out your damm posts! I don't know if channeling Will Smith (especially on that occasion) is ever appropriate.  |
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Post by robtearle on May 19, 2022 12:52:20 GMT -5
"That is a very emotional." It sure as hell is! "...context in which Pete Waite was brought up..." I love the passive voice there. Brought up BY YOU! You used "the Pete Waite years" as a "bad example" in your rather pointless bit about "finding the right coach and keeping the right coach is the same issue" etc etc. He was NOT a "bad example"; he was NOT an example of "not the right coach". And if this isn't related to Steve Aird, why are you arguing it on a comment thread on Steve Aird? Maybe channeling Will Smith here would be appropriate - keep Pete Waite's name out your damm posts! Are you Pete Waite’s buddy? Sure, I brought up Pete Waite and Wisconsin as a specific example of a program that would have been better off if they’d been able to keep their former coach. Period. The end. I stand by it. I haven’t done anything wrong here. Your insistence I have is not only not compelling to me, it doesn’t even make any sense to me. I’ve obviously made you very angry in a Will Smith sort of way, when I’m baffled as to how I’ve done that. John Cook was 'the right coach' in your example, Pete Waite was 'the wrong coach' when he replaced Cook. No? Well, that 'wrong coach' took them to nine straight NCAA appearances, won two Big Ten championships (only one fewer than John Cook at Nebraska, BTW), and a national final. If you can't see why throwing out Pete Waite's name in that context is incorrect and insulting - particularly on a thread about Steve Aird as a bad . bad coach and bad person - they I can't help you! |
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Post by greatlakesvballer on May 19, 2022 13:14:37 GMT -5
He also recruited Lauren Carlini.
IU's situation with Aird is not similar to that one.
Holy hell. I’m not comparing Pete Waite and Wisconsin to Indiana and Aird. I’m saying that a great program has to both find the right coach and keep them. Indiana is not only going to have to find the right coach - which they obviously haven’t yet. They will also have to then keep them, which is another set of challenges. One I’m sure they’d aspire to at this point, but a challenge nonetheless. Thanks. I disagree with your first three sentences, and I agree with the last three. (Despite our disagreement) Yes, Indiana is several steps behind where Wisconsin found itself in 2012. At this point, it's not about finding the right coach (and building back trust among athletes, fans, donors, athletic dept. personnel, etc.), it's about removing the impediment to program progress first. |
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Post by greatlakesvballer on May 19, 2022 13:21:19 GMT -5
Sure, I brought up Pete Waite and Wisconsin as a specific example of a program that would have been better off if they’d been able to keep their former coach. Period. The end. I stand by it. It's a poor comparison....you left out a ton of context (like the fact that Cook was waiting to go back to Nebraska)....
Maybe "coach management" is a better topic: Like how could the IU Athletic Department let things get this bad in the first place?
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Post by mervynpumpkinhead on May 19, 2022 13:24:32 GMT -5
He also recruited Lauren Carlini. IU's situation with Aird is not similar to that one.
Holy hell. I’m not comparing Pete Waite and Wisconsin to Indiana and Aird. I’m saying that a great program has to both find the right coach and keep them. Indiana is not only going to have to find the right coach - which they obviously haven’t yet. They will also have to then keep them, which is another set of challenges. One I’m sure they’d aspire to at this point, but a challenge nonetheless. I get your point. Indiana would have the same problem as a mid-major if they find the right coach to get the program on track: being poached by a better program. But if you could get things going in Indiana, it could become a destination school. |
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Post by slxpress on May 19, 2022 13:39:33 GMT -5
Sure, I brought up Pete Waite and Wisconsin as a specific example of a program that would have been better off if they’d been able to keep their former coach. Period. The end. I stand by it. It's a poor comparison....you left out a ton of context (like the fact that Cook was waiting to go back to Nebraska)....
Maybe "coach management" is a better topic: Like how could the IU Athletic Department let things get this bad in the first place?
Well, what IU is facing is of a different order. There’s hiring an incompetent coach. Then there’s hiring an abusive coach. Then there’s knowing you have an incompetent abusive coach, and you keep him. I can understand hiring a incompetent coach. I could give a giant list of coaches who I thought were sure fire successes who fell flat on their face. You just never know. I can even understand hiring an abusive coach. Abusive people who are successful are master manipulators. It’s part of why psychopathy is so common among highly successful people, even though it’s only measured at 10% of the population. Coaching is inherently an authoritative relationship, and sometimes the line between developing someone to their utmost and abusive behavior isn’t quite as cut and dried as we’d like to think. How did Bob Knight stay on so long at Indiana? Ever read The Junction Boys about Bear Bryant’s first team at A&M? That said, when someone goes beyond the pale AND they’re poor at their job, it takes a special kind of administration to say, “He’s our guy!” I remember when Mangino was fired from the KU football program for abusive behavior after taking them to the Orange Bowl. They not only haven’t had any success since, they’ve been the worst Power 5 program in the country. The thing is, OU was doing similar things when he was on staff there, and Bill Snyder at KSU where Mangino started his career wasn’t known for handing out milk and cookies to either his players or his staff. Yet, once things came to light KU did the right thing. I don’t really comprehend what’s going on at IU other than it’s a cancer. And the cancer isn’t just with Aird. It’s with his enablers in the IU administration. And if their decision making is so poor in the current situation, why does anyone think it would be better with the next coach, starting with who they choose to hire? |
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