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Post by bbg95 on Jul 28, 2022 14:52:23 GMT -5
The Pro Football Hall of Fame isn't too inclusive. It's arguably not inclusive enough (way more positions in football). The basketball HOF lets too many people in. Football seriously underrecognizes offensive linemen. I don't see many glaring mistakes with the basketball hall, at least as far as ex-NBA players. Here's the '23 eligible class, for example (top ten ranked by career win shares) Dirk Pau Shawn Marion Chauncey DWade Buck Williams Horance Grant Tony Parker Terry Porter Elton Brand A class of Dirk/Pau/Marion/Billups/Wade/Parker is pretty damn great. It'd be hard to exclude any of them. I think this article did a good job of highlighting some of the worst basketball Hall of Famers. Also, your list of that potential class doesn't really excite me that much. There are some no-doubt Hall of Famers like Dirk on that list, but I really can't get exited about Shawn Marion in the Hall of Fame. Edit: I did not realize that Vlade Diflop is in the Hall of Fame. He did basically pioneer flopping in the NBA, but come on.
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Post by bbg95 on Jul 28, 2022 14:55:29 GMT -5
We'll never know how good Bonds "would have been without juicing". Anyway, personality and likeability definitely play a factor. Ortiz seems to have been well-liked. Much easier to forgive a guy who is well-liked. Clemons? Not so much, even though he's certainly one of a handful of "best pitchers in baseball history". Bonds? No. Rodriguez? No, although his appearances as an analyst may actually be changing that, as people seem to respond better to him as an analyst than they did as a player. I think we kind of know about Bonds. It's widely accepted that he started juicing after seeing the 1998 home run race between McGwire and Sosa. His first juiced season was 1999 at age 34. He was injured in 1999, and then he had a fairly typical season by his standards in 2000. Then, at age 36-39, he had four of the best seasons in the history of baseball. No one just turns into Babe Ruth in their mid-to-late 30s without help. He was still an exceptional player pre-roids, though. If he never juiced and had a fairly natural decline as he aged, he'd still be one of the best players of all time. Just not arguably the greatest.
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Post by nowhereman on Jul 28, 2022 15:13:40 GMT -5
If they do put in known or suspected PED users, I'd include the following (not in any particular order): -Barry Bonds -Roger Clemens -Alex Rodriguez -Manny Ramirez -Mark McGwire -Raphael Palmeiro -Sammy Sosa I'm probably forgetting someone, but those are the ones that I could think of off the top of my head. I think they were all better than Ortiz was. Put them all in and build a wing contextualizing the "steroid era." It's impossible to know who was actually clean (and is actually clean today, for that matter). The current situation, with several of the greatest players ever excluded, is absurd. Barry Bonds, whom I hate, is probably the single greatest baseball player to ever live and that fact he's not in the HOF diminishes the Hall as much as it does Bonds. (of course, Barry would have likely been a top 10 player ever without juicing, but that's neither here nor there) I agree with this and think there should be a hall of shame section to acknowledge Pete rose and shoeless Joe Jackson.
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Post by bbg95 on Jul 28, 2022 15:17:06 GMT -5
Put them all in and build a wing contextualizing the "steroid era." It's impossible to know who was actually clean (and is actually clean today, for that matter). The current situation, with several of the greatest players ever excluded, is absurd. Barry Bonds, whom I hate, is probably the single greatest baseball player to ever live and that fact he's not in the HOF diminishes the Hall as much as it does Bonds. (of course, Barry would have likely been a top 10 player ever without juicing, but that's neither here nor there) I agree with this and think there should be a hall of shame section to acknowledge Pete rose and shoeless Joe Jackson. Rose and Shoeless Joe should also be in. The writers moralize way too much about the Hall of Fame. Just put the best players in.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 28, 2022 15:26:54 GMT -5
We'll never know how good Bonds "would have been without juicing". Anyway, personality and likeability definitely play a factor. Ortiz seems to have been well-liked. Much easier to forgive a guy who is well-liked. Clemons? Not so much, even though he's certainly one of a handful of "best pitchers in baseball history". Bonds? No. Rodriguez? No, although his appearances as an analyst may actually be changing that, as people seem to respond better to him as an analyst than they did as a player. I think we kind of know about Bonds. It's widely accepted that he started juicing after seeing the 1998 home run race between McGwire and Sosa. His first juiced season was 1999 at age 34. He was injured in 1999, and then he had a fairly typical season by his standards in 2000. Then, at age 36-39, he had four of the best season in the history of baseball. No one just turns into Babe Ruth in their mid-to-late 30s without help. He was still an exceptional player pre-roids, though. If he never juiced and had a fairly natural decline as he aged, he'd still be one of the best players of all time. Just not arguably the greatest. The thing is, a lot of these guys started with the PEDs to help them recover from injuries. Then many of them kept using. Griffey Jr. was on a trajectory to maybe be "the best player ever" just like Bonds (maybe more so than Bonds), but he started getting injured and then his career numbers slowed and then came to a stop. Still with 630 HRs, mind you. Remember, he was right in that home run race with McGwire and Sosa, although as far as we know he was the only one of the three not taking PEDs. If he had gone the Bonds route of better living through chemistry, would he have picked up a couple hundred more home runs? Maybe. Maybe not. But I think it's wrong to just say "Bonds was the greatest player ever, despite the juicing" because we just don't know what would have happened. It's injuries that get most guys, and the PEDs really help with those.
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Post by bbg95 on Jul 28, 2022 15:29:07 GMT -5
I think we kind of know about Bonds. It's widely accepted that he started juicing after seeing the 1998 home run race between McGwire and Sosa. His first juiced season was 1999 at age 34. He was injured in 1999, and then he had a fairly typical season by his standards in 2000. Then, at age 36-39, he had four of the best season in the history of baseball. No one just turns into Babe Ruth in their mid-to-late 30s without help. He was still an exceptional player pre-roids, though. If he never juiced and had a fairly natural decline as he aged, he'd still be one of the best players of all time. Just not arguably the greatest. The thing is, a lot of these guys started with the PEDs to help them recover from injuries. Then many of them kept using. Griffey Jr. was on a trajectory to maybe be "the best player ever" just like Bonds (maybe more so than Bonds), but he started getting injured and then his career numbers slowed and then came to a stop. Still with 630 HRs, mind you. Remember, he was right in that home run race with McGwire and Sosa, although as far as we know he was the only one of the three not taking PEDs. If he had gone the Bonds route of better living through chemistry, would he have picked up a couple hundred more home runs? Maybe. Maybe not. But I think it's wrong to just say "Bonds was the greatest player ever, despite the juicing" because we just don't know what would have happened. It's injuries that get most guys, and the PEDs really help with those. Yeah, I pretty much agree with all of this. Bonds is without a doubt among the best players ever. But I can't ignore his juicing if we're talking the greatest. Edit: Also, I love Ken Griffey Jr. He's probably my favorite player of that era. But pre-roid Bonds was a better player.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 28, 2022 15:29:14 GMT -5
I agree with this and think there should be a hall of shame section to acknowledge Pete rose and shoeless Joe Jackson. Rose and Shoeless Joe should also be in. The writers moralize way too much about the Hall of Fame. Just put the best players in. It's not all that clear that Shoeless Joe actually even has HOF credentials if the ban is overturned. Of course, part of that is that he was kicked out of the MLB before his career would have been over.
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Post by bbg95 on Jul 28, 2022 15:31:49 GMT -5
Rose and Shoeless Joe should also be in. The writers moralize way too much about the Hall of Fame. Just put the best players in. It's not all that clear that Shoeless Joe actually even has HOF credentials if the ban is overturned. Of course, part of that is that he was kicked out of the MLB before his career would have been over. Eh, Shoeless Joe has a career OPS+ of 170, which is 12th all time. And 62.2 WAR, which is a ton for a guy whose career ended at age 32. I guess if you just look at his unadjusted counting stats, he doesn't look that impressive. But he played almost his entire career in the Dead Ball Era.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 28, 2022 15:48:17 GMT -5
It's not all that clear that Shoeless Joe actually even has HOF credentials if the ban is overturned. Of course, part of that is that he was kicked out of the MLB before his career would have been over. Eh, Shoeless Joe has a career OPS+ of 170, which is 12th all time. And 62.2 WAR, which is a ton for a guy whose career ended at age 32. I guess if you just look at his unadjusted counting stats, he doesn't look that impressive. But he played almost his entire career in the Dead Ball Era. Stats from back then are seriously hard to compare with current day. I think his best argument is actually just that people at the time thought he was a big star, and they understood baseball of their own time better than we do now.
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Post by mervinswerved on Jul 28, 2022 15:58:45 GMT -5
I met Pete Rose one time when I was waiting tables. He was in my way and I said, "excuse me, Mr. Rose." He turned around and said, "oh, sorry" and moved out of my way. That's my Pete Rose story.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2022 21:57:48 GMT -5
Eh, Shoeless Joe has a career OPS+ of 170, which is 12th all time. And 62.2 WAR, which is a ton for a guy whose career ended at age 32. I guess if you just look at his unadjusted counting stats, he doesn't look that impressive. But he played almost his entire career in the Dead Ball Era. Stats from back then are seriously hard to compare with current day. I think his best argument is actually just that people at the time thought he was a big star, and they understood baseball of their own time better than we do now. It's not hard to compare. That's why bbg noted the OPS and WAR. Jackson was 70% above league average. Those comparisons keep everything in context of the eras involved. Fangraphs has good stuff on explaining all of it. Jackson and Rose don't belong in, regardless. They tampered with the game. Rose is worse. Jackson could say there was no written rule during his career against it AND other players had thrown games previously including Speaker and Cobb. Rose--he had the rule read to him regarding gambling=ban three times a year as a player every year of his career, then as a manager, so heard the consequences at least 100 times. It's posted in every dugout and clubhouse. And then he lied about it, hid it--and lied again more later.
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Post by nowhereman on Jul 28, 2022 22:34:23 GMT -5
I used to want Pete in the hall but I just thought the way he came out and thought he should be in rubbed me wrong. He could have just kept his mouth shut and low keyed his way to possible reinstatement but then he had to be an ass about it.
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Post by bbg95 on Jul 28, 2022 22:50:27 GMT -5
I used to want Pete in the hall but I just thought the way he came out and thought he should be in rubbed me wrong. He could have just kept his mouth shut and low keyed his way to possible reinstatement but then he had to be an ass about it. Honestly, I don't care about any of that. Rose has more hits than anyone in the history of Major League Baseball. That's what matters to me.
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Post by geddyleeridesagain on Jul 28, 2022 22:58:56 GMT -5
Football seriously underrecognizes offensive linemen. I don't see many glaring mistakes with the basketball hall, at least as far as ex-NBA players. Here's the '23 eligible class, for example (top ten ranked by career win shares) Dirk Pau Shawn Marion Chauncey DWade Buck Williams Horance Grant Tony Parker Terry Porter Elton Brand A class of Dirk/Pau/Marion/Billups/Wade/Parker is pretty damn great. It'd be hard to exclude any of them. I think this article did a good job of highlighting some of the worst basketball Hall of Famers. Also, your list of that potential class doesn't really excite me that much. There are some no-doubt Hall of Famers like Dirk on that list, but I really can't get exited about Shawn Marion in the Hall of Fame. Edit: I did not realize that Vlade Diflop is in the Hall of Fame. He did basically pioneer flopping in the NBA, but come on. Ugh, that basketball HOF opinion piece is garbage.
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Post by bbg95 on Jul 28, 2022 23:02:23 GMT -5
I think this article did a good job of highlighting some of the worst basketball Hall of Famers. Also, your list of that potential class doesn't really excite me that much. There are some no-doubt Hall of Famers like Dirk on that list, but I really can't get exited about Shawn Marion in the Hall of Fame. Edit: I did not realize that Vlade Diflop is in the Hall of Fame. He did basically pioneer flopping in the NBA, but come on. Ugh, that basketball HOF opinion piece is garbage. Disagree. The basketball Hall of Fame is way too lenient in my view. Vlade is in no world a Hall of Famer. And that's just one example.
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