Big West 2023

[twkpwrbtmlib]

when do bw awards come out?

[GauchoFreg]

As the #1 seed UCSB should have the right to pick Poly over LB to play in the semi-finals (assuming the upper seeds win). Doesn't seem fair to have to play the home team when the alternative is similarly ranked. Of course it never works this way but it should.

[kb808]

Nov 20, 2023 19:54:19 GMT -5 GauchoFreg said:

As the #1 seed UCSB should have the right to pick Poly over LB to play in the semi-finals (assuming the upper seeds win). Doesn't seem fair to have to play the home team when the alternative is similarly ranked. Of course it never works this way but it should.

Lol 😂.. Hawaii fans will be cheering for the Gauchos!

[dd2000]

Nov 20, 2023 19:54:19 GMT -5 GauchoFreg said:

As the #1 seed UCSB should have the right to pick Poly over LB to play in the semi-finals (assuming the upper seeds win). Doesn't seem fair to have to play the home team when the alternative is similarly ranked. Of course it never works this way but it should.

Um, no. It should never work that way. Poly earned their seed and they shouldn't be relegated to appeasing you. That said, I think UCSB is the favorite but any of the top 4 can play up and win it all.

[BeachbytheBay]

Nov 20, 2023 19:54:19 GMT -5 GauchoFreg said:

As the #1 seed UCSB should have the right to pick Poly over LB to play in the semi-finals (assuming the upper seeds win). Doesn't seem fair to have to play the home team when the alternative is similarly ranked. Of course it never works this way but it should.

ok, so SB wants to play a team that did better in the first round.


nice logic

[dd2000]

When the big west tournament was announced, I initially thought that it was a terrible idea. Not anymore. Yes the obvious reason as a Hawaii fan, is that it gives the Wahine a chance to make the dance this year, when they didn't win the conference out right. But aside from that, I think this is good for the conference. The top teams are on notice that they have to work hard for an RPI that allows them to make the tournament without having to win the conference tournament. Hawaii, Long Beach, and Poly are top 100 RPI teams and could be in a position like UCSB, to make the dance based on RPI, had they just a couple more key wins in the preseason. Hawaii still might make the cut but it's a long shot. Hopefully we get back to a two or three team NCAA tournament conference consistently. I like that the bottom of the conference is showing improvement as that really is key.

[trojansc]

Nov 20, 2023 21:31:55 GMT -5 dd2000 said:

When the big west tournament was announced, I initially thought that it was a terrible idea. Not anymore. Yes the obvious reason as a Hawaii fan, is that it gives the Wahine a chance to make the dance this year, when they didn't win the conference out right. But aside from that, I think this is good for the conference. The top teams are on notice that they have to work hard for an RPI that allows them to make the tournament without having to win the conference tournament. Hawaii, Long Beach, and Poly are top 100 RPI teams and could be in a position like UCSB, to make the dance based on RPI, had they just a couple more key wins in the preseason. Hawaii still might make the cut but it's a long shot. Hopefully we get back to a two or three team NCAA tournament conference consistently. I like that the bottom of the conference is showing improvement as that really is key.

I tried to tell ya'll, but the old school Wahine faithful weren't feeling me.

[BeachbytheBay]

Nov 20, 2023 22:02:54 GMT -5 trojansc said:

Nov 20, 2023 21:31:55 GMT -5 dd2000 said:

When the big west tournament was announced, I initially thought that it was a terrible idea. Not anymore. Yes the obvious reason as a Hawaii fan, is that it gives the Wahine a chance to make the dance this year, when they didn't win the conference out right. But aside from that, I think this is good for the conference. The top teams are on notice that they have to work hard for an RPI that allows them to make the tournament without having to win the conference tournament. Hawaii, Long Beach, and Poly are top 100 RPI teams and could be in a position like UCSB, to make the dance based on RPI, had they just a couple more key wins in the preseason. Hawaii still might make the cut but it's a long shot. Hopefully we get back to a two or three team NCAA tournament conference consistently. I like that the bottom of the conference is showing improvement as that really is key.

I tried to tell ya'll, but the old school Wahine faithful weren't feeling me.

it is ironic the Hawaii reaction about it. their belief system was it would only likely result in Hawaii losing a bid - the 'we always get screwed mentality'. now instead of playing Northridge and Bakersfield again and seeing their RPI drop more, they'll instead get decent RPI opponents and a chance for and auto-bid.

now of course, watch Irvine or Davis win the auto-bid, and then the howling can return.

[noblesol]

Nov 20, 2023 22:21:03 GMT -5 BeachbytheBay said:

Nov 20, 2023 22:02:54 GMT -5 trojansc said:

I tried to tell ya'll, but the old school Wahine faithful weren't feeling me.

it is ironic the Hawaii reaction about it. their belief system was it would only likely result in Hawaii losing a bid - the 'we always get screwed mentality'. now instead of playing Northridge and Bakersfield again and seeing their RPI drop more, they'll instead get decent RPI opponents and a chance for and auto-bid.

now of course, watch Irvine or Davis win the auto-bid, and then the howling can return.

Well, don't over generalize. When the BWCT was announced, it was 'format TBD'. Not all Hawai'i fans were auto-opposed to a tournament per se. A few were hard against, some didn't see a need for it, but 'format TBD' was the big caution flag holding back majority support. The concern for me was that it would dip down too far into the weak RPI ranks of the BW teams, and negate the potential good for those teams around the bubble.

A four team BWCT would have been optimal given conference strength. Six is an overstretch in that it doesn't help teams hanging around the bubble to play teams with RPI around 200. Opening up bid stealing opportunity for those bottom teams is fun for them, but penalizes the conferences tougher scheduling teams when it comes to picking up at-large bids.

[volleyguy]

A conference tournament is not helping to improve the bottom of the conference (nor the resultant heavy RPI hits). Having three or four teams in the top 100 RPI is a good improvement for the Big West, a result that could be improved a bit if the bottom dwellers weren’t so horrible. Giving a couple of teams a little hope of getting into the NCAA tournament because of an upset in the conference tourney isn’t a viable substitute for the hard work required to upgrade the conference as a whole. That possibility still exists in volleyball (unlike basketball, where the conference tournament doesn’t really improve the chances of multiple teams in NCAA post-season.)

[BeachbytheBay]

Nov 20, 2023 23:18:15 GMT -5 noblesol said:

Nov 20, 2023 22:21:03 GMT -5 BeachbytheBay said:

it is ironic the Hawaii reaction about it. their belief system was it would only likely result in Hawaii losing a bid - the 'we always get screwed mentality'. now instead of playing Northridge and Bakersfield again and seeing their RPI drop more, they'll instead get decent RPI opponents and a chance for and auto-bid.

now of course, watch Irvine or Davis win the auto-bid, and then the howling can return.

Well, don't over generalize. When the BWCT was announced, it was 'format TBD'. Not all Hawai'i fans were auto-opposed to a tournament per se. A few were hard against, some didn't see a need for it, but 'format TBD' was the big caution flag holding back majority support. The concern for me was that it would dip down too far into the weak RPI ranks of the BW teams, and negate the potential good for those teams around the bubble.

A four team BWCT would have been optimal given conference strength. Six is an overstretch in that it doesn't help teams hanging around the bubble to play teams with RPI around 200. Opening up bid stealing opportunity for those bottom teams is fun for them, but penalizes the conferences tougher scheduling teams when it comes to picking up at-large bids.

it's not an overgeneralization. it was more Hawaii 'group-think' response towards a BWCT along the typical 'the system will screw us' again, sorry but that's what comes across over and over. if it was up to the Hawaii / fans, there'd be no BWCT.

as to 4 or 6 teams, it's really not a big difference. and it's not the bottom teams competing. Irvine has been a mid BW team, as have Davis typically.

granted yes the more all teams win the better. but people need to get real, there is likely going to continue with 4-5 truly bad teams, that's just reality and those that want an at-large know they have to schedule at least 1-2 top 25/50 teams every weekend in non-conference to have a resume. In hindsight, SB didn't even do a great job in that regard this season. to me those programs are their own problem, not something Beach or Hawaii or whoever can control or even dwell on. and those teams didn't cause Beach to lose to UCLA or NOrthridge, nor Hawaii to Liberty - which is really what damaged those resumes more than anything within the conference

as it is with 6 teams, the top 2 teams have an advantage with the bye, another advantage that actually is real, given both Beach/Hawaii were flying over and the 2 has more practice time to prep and rest.

IMO, people are overthinking the tournament. the reason isn't solely to have the tournament serve a gaming for RPI for Hawaii or any other team. a big reason is too provide and promote interest, because interest continuing hopefully will be a factor in having lower/mid programs build interest for those programs to grow. The tournament statistically is good for quality matches, which could help get a program an at-large, but will also someday knock out a program on the bubble. so what?. overall, statistically it WILL increase bids, and keeps more teams with interest. I mean, this last weekend, the 2/3/4 and 5/6 seeds were all generating more interest than normally would

6 teams is reasonable, yeah this year IRvine is a not a good RPI opponent, that's gonna happen sometimes. 4 teams would be ok, certainly this year the way things turned out, the top 4 are all relatively close. some years it'll be different. to say 4 is optimal? who knows, some years 3 would, some years 5, it'll all depend and change year to year. and yes, typically only the top 2, 3, or 4 are going to include a at-large bubble teams that the BWCT will have a bubble improve or bubble burst. that's ok, because, it drives for more interest in the conference. Heck, if Hawaii loses to Poly, the BWCT will have been a 'bad' thing, lol. If they win, it's better.

[volleyguy]

Nov 21, 2023 0:09:13 GMT -5 BeachbytheBay said:

Nov 20, 2023 23:18:15 GMT -5 noblesol said:

Well, don't over generalize. When the BWCT was announced, it was 'format TBD'. Not all Hawai'i fans were auto-opposed to a tournament per se. A few were hard against, some didn't see a need for it, but 'format TBD' was the big caution flag holding back majority support. The concern for me was that it would dip down too far into the weak RPI ranks of the BW teams, and negate the potential good for those teams around the bubble.

A four team BWCT would have been optimal given conference strength. Six is an overstretch in that it doesn't help teams hanging around the bubble to play teams with RPI around 200. Opening up bid stealing opportunity for those bottom teams is fun for them, but penalizes the conferences tougher scheduling teams when it comes to picking up at-large bids.

it's not an overgeneralization. it was more Hawaii 'group-think' response towards a BWCT along the typical 'the system will screw us' again, sorry but that's what comes across over and over. if it was up to the Hawaii / fans, there'd be no BWCT.

as to 4 or 6 teams, it's really not a big difference. and it's not the bottom teams competing. Irvine has been a mid BW team, as have Davis typically.

granted yes the more all teams win the better. but people need to get real, there is likely going to continue with 4-5 truly bad teams, that's just reality and those that want an at-large know they have to schedule at least 1-2 top 25/50 teams every weekend in non-conference to have a resume. In hindsight, SB didn't even do a great job in that regard this season. to me those programs are their own problem, not something Beach or Hawaii or whoever can control or even dwell on. and those teams didn't cause Beach to lose to UCLA or NOrthridge, nor Hawaii to Liberty - which is really what damaged those resumes more than anything within the conference

as it is with 6 teams, the top 2 teams have an advantage with the bye, another advantage that actually is real, given both Beach/Hawaii were flying over and the 2 has more practice time to prep and rest.

IMO, people are overthinking the tournament. the reason isn't solely to have the tournament serve a gaming for RPI for Hawaii or any other team. a big reason is too provide and promote interest, because interest continuing hopefully will be a factor in having lower/mid programs build interest for those programs to grow. The tournament statistically is good for quality matches, which could help get a program an at-large, but will also someday knock out a program on the bubble. so what?. overall, statistically it WILL increase bids, and keeps more teams with interest. I mean, this last weekend, the 2/3/4 and 5/6 seeds were all generating more interest than normally would

6 teams is reasonable, yeah this year IRvine is a not a good RPI opponent, that's gonna happen sometimes. 4 teams would be ok, certainly this year the way things turned out, the top 4 are all relatively close. some years it'll be different. to say 4 is optimal? who knows, some years 3 would, some years 5, it'll all depend and change year to year. and yes, typically only the top 2, 3, or 4 are going to include a at-large bubble teams that the BWCT will have a bubble improve or bubble burst. that's ok, because, it drives for more interest in the conference. Heck, if Hawaii loses to Poly, the BWCT will have been a 'bad' thing, lol. If they win, it's better.

The Big West conference tournament for basketball (men's especially) didn't really do a good job of promoting interest or sustained attendance once teams lost (certainly prior to being held in Vegas, although I haven't paid much attention to those more recent attendance numbers).

[noblesol]

Nov 21, 2023 0:09:13 GMT -5 BeachbytheBay said:

Nov 20, 2023 23:18:15 GMT -5 noblesol said:

Well, don't over generalize. When the BWCT was announced, it was 'format TBD'. Not all Hawai'i fans were auto-opposed to a tournament per se. A few were hard against, some didn't see a need for it, but 'format TBD' was the big caution flag holding back majority support. The concern for me was that it would dip down too far into the weak RPI ranks of the BW teams, and negate the potential good for those teams around the bubble.

A four team BWCT would have been optimal given conference strength. Six is an overstretch in that it doesn't help teams hanging around the bubble to play teams with RPI around 200. Opening up bid stealing opportunity for those bottom teams is fun for them, but penalizes the conferences tougher scheduling teams when it comes to picking up at-large bids.

it's not an overgeneralization. it was more Hawaii 'group-think' response towards a BWCT along the typical 'the system will screw us' again, sorry but that's what comes across over and over. if it was up to the Hawaii / fans, there'd be no BWCT.

as to 4 or 6 teams, it's really not a big difference. and it's not the bottom teams competing. Irvine has been a mid BW team, as have Davis typically.

granted yes the more all teams win the better. but people need to get real, there is likely going to continue with 4-5 truly bad teams, that's just reality and those that want an at-large know they have to schedule at least 1-2 top 25/50 teams every weekend in non-conference to have a resume. In hindsight, SB didn't even do a great job in that regard this season. to me those programs are their own problem, not something Beach or Hawaii or whoever can control or even dwell on. and those teams didn't cause Beach to lose to UCLA or NOrthridge, nor Hawaii to Liberty - which is really what damaged those resumes more than anything within the conference

as it is with 6 teams, the top 2 teams have an advantage with the bye, another advantage that actually is real, given both Beach/Hawaii were flying over and the 2 has more practice time to prep and rest.

IMO, people are overthinking the tournament. the reason isn't solely to have the tournament serve a gaming for RPI for Hawaii or any other team. a big reason is too provide and promote interest, because interest continuing hopefully will be a factor in having lower/mid programs build interest for those programs to grow. The tournament statistically is good for quality matches, which could help get a program an at-large, but will also someday knock out a program on the bubble. so what?. overall, statistically it WILL increase bids, and keeps more teams with interest. I mean, this last weekend, the 2/3/4 and 5/6 seeds were all generating more interest than normally would

6 teams is reasonable, yeah this year IRvine is a not a good RPI opponent, that's gonna happen sometimes. 4 teams would be ok, certainly this year the way things turned out, the top 4 are all relatively close. some years it'll be different. to say 4 is optimal? who knows, some years 3 would, some years 5, it'll all depend and change year to year. and yes, typically only the top 2, 3, or 4 are going to include a at-large bubble teams that the BWCT will have a bubble improve or bubble burst. that's ok, because, it drives for more interest in the conference. Heck, if Hawaii loses to Poly, the BWCT will have been a 'bad' thing, lol. If they win, it's better.

'What's optimal' for BWCT size? The right answer is balanced between competing goals.

- A goal to be realized almost immediately is to try to assist the top teams in the conference with at-large selection, increasing the number of BWC teams in the NCAAT. That goal is best realized by limiting the number of tournament teams to those with sufficiently strong RPI that tournament matches are potentially helpful and at the least not harmful. A benchmark to consider here is that a 'bad loss' on the nitty gritty is to a team w/RPI > 100. Teams in the RPI 50 - 100 range are outside of the at-large bubble but viewed as competitive. Looking back through the Figstats RPI Archive all the way to 2016, the BWC hasn't supported a potential conference tournament field greater than four teams using the no RPI > 100 benchmark. Many years it was just three teams. 

- Another BWCT goal is to grow program support primarily for the mid to bottom of the conference. The perennials near the conference top didn't need a conference tournament for generating program support. A related goal is to give the mid to bottom program athletes something more to compete for through the conference season, hopefully elevating and sustaining more competitive play which is hoped feeds back into improvement in play in following seasons and non-conference. For these goals, expanding the tournament a bit beyond what would be 'optimal' for getting additional at-large bids was the conference answer.

If higher and sustainable program support and play is generated in the longer term from the mid to bottom of the conference, traceable to the holding of the tournament, then expansion beyond the 'optimal' four team format to six teams is more than justified. A 'traceable' result might be if conference strength improves to regularly support five teams in the six-team BWCT all with RPI <= 100, say within the next four years. Plan to be around that long?




 

[VT Karen]

Nov 21, 2023 0:09:13 GMT -5 BeachbytheBay said:

Nov 20, 2023 23:18:15 GMT -5 noblesol said:

Well, don't over generalize. When the BWCT was announced, it was 'format TBD'. Not all Hawai'i fans were auto-opposed to a tournament per se. A few were hard against, some didn't see a need for it, but 'format TBD' was the big caution flag holding back majority support. The concern for me was that it would dip down too far into the weak RPI ranks of the BW teams, and negate the potential good for those teams around the bubble.

A four team BWCT would have been optimal given conference strength. Six is an overstretch in that it doesn't help teams hanging around the bubble to play teams with RPI around 200. Opening up bid stealing opportunity for those bottom teams is fun for them, but penalizes the conferences tougher scheduling teams when it comes to picking up at-large bids.

it's not an overgeneralization. it was more Hawaii 'group-think' response towards a BWCT along the typical 'the system will screw us' again, sorry but that's what comes across over and over. if it was up to the Hawaii / fans, there'd be no BWCT.

as to 4 or 6 teams, it's really not a big difference. and it's not the bottom teams competing. Irvine has been a mid BW team, as have Davis typically.

granted yes the more all teams win the better. but people need to get real, there is likely going to continue with 4-5 truly bad teams, that's just reality and those that want an at-large know they have to schedule at least 1-2 top 25/50 teams every weekend in non-conference to have a resume. In hindsight, SB didn't even do a great job in that regard this season. to me those programs are their own problem, not something Beach or Hawaii or whoever can control or even dwell on. and those teams didn't cause Beach to lose to UCLA or NOrthridge, nor Hawaii to Liberty - which is really what damaged those resumes more than anything within the conference

as it is with 6 teams, the top 2 teams have an advantage with the bye, another advantage that actually is real, given both Beach/Hawaii were flying over and the 2 has more practice time to prep and rest.

IMO, people are overthinking the tournament. the reason isn't solely to have the tournament serve a gaming for RPI for Hawaii or any other team. a big reason is too provide and promote interest, because interest continuing hopefully will be a factor in having lower/mid programs build interest for those programs to grow. The tournament statistically is good for quality matches, which could help get a program an at-large, but will also someday knock out a program on the bubble. so what?. overall, statistically it WILL increase bids, and keeps more teams with interest. I mean, this last weekend, the 2/3/4 and 5/6 seeds were all generating more interest than normally would

6 teams is reasonable, yeah this year IRvine is a not a good RPI opponent, that's gonna happen sometimes. 4 teams would be ok, certainly this year the way things turned out, the top 4 are all relatively close. some years it'll be different. to say 4 is optimal? who knows, some years 3 would, some years 5, it'll all depend and change year to year. and yes, typically only the top 2, 3, or 4 are going to include a at-large bubble teams that the BWCT will have a bubble improve or bubble burst. that's ok, because, it drives for more interest in the conference. Heck, if Hawaii loses to Poly, the BWCT will have been a 'bad' thing, lol. If they win, it's better.

Was the number of Hawaii supporters opposed to the tournament really that high? I think it was more the old guard; BIK was the only person I can recall who strongly objected to it.

Even before Hawaii suffered four losses, I believe a lot of Hawaii supporters enjoyed the idea of a tournament. Hawaii's two losses to UCSB in 2021 seemed strange because they still advanced to the tournament without having to play the Gauchos in a significant postseason matchup and the conference season ended with a thud. But that's only what I think.


The main thing is that there will be more Big West volleyball matches and opportunities for the top teams in the conference to face off in the postseason.

[volleyguy]

Nov 21, 2023 2:04:21 GMT -5 noblesol said:

Nov 21, 2023 0:09:13 GMT -5 BeachbytheBay said:

it's not an overgeneralization. it was more Hawaii 'group-think' response towards a BWCT along the typical 'the system will screw us' again, sorry but that's what comes across over and over. if it was up to the Hawaii / fans, there'd be no BWCT.

as to 4 or 6 teams, it's really not a big difference. and it's not the bottom teams competing. Irvine has been a mid BW team, as have Davis typically.

granted yes the more all teams win the better. but people need to get real, there is likely going to continue with 4-5 truly bad teams, that's just reality and those that want an at-large know they have to schedule at least 1-2 top 25/50 teams every weekend in non-conference to have a resume. In hindsight, SB didn't even do a great job in that regard this season. to me those programs are their own problem, not something Beach or Hawaii or whoever can control or even dwell on. and those teams didn't cause Beach to lose to UCLA or NOrthridge, nor Hawaii to Liberty - which is really what damaged those resumes more than anything within the conference

as it is with 6 teams, the top 2 teams have an advantage with the bye, another advantage that actually is real, given both Beach/Hawaii were flying over and the 2 has more practice time to prep and rest.

IMO, people are overthinking the tournament. the reason isn't solely to have the tournament serve a gaming for RPI for Hawaii or any other team. a big reason is too provide and promote interest, because interest continuing hopefully will be a factor in having lower/mid programs build interest for those programs to grow. The tournament statistically is good for quality matches, which could help get a program an at-large, but will also someday knock out a program on the bubble. so what?. overall, statistically it WILL increase bids, and keeps more teams with interest. I mean, this last weekend, the 2/3/4 and 5/6 seeds were all generating more interest than normally would

6 teams is reasonable, yeah this year IRvine is a not a good RPI opponent, that's gonna happen sometimes. 4 teams would be ok, certainly this year the way things turned out, the top 4 are all relatively close. some years it'll be different. to say 4 is optimal? who knows, some years 3 would, some years 5, it'll all depend and change year to year. and yes, typically only the top 2, 3, or 4 are going to include a at-large bubble teams that the BWCT will have a bubble improve or bubble burst. that's ok, because, it drives for more interest in the conference. Heck, if Hawaii loses to Poly, the BWCT will have been a 'bad' thing, lol. If they win, it's better.

'What's optimal' for BWCT size? The right answer is balanced between competing goals.

- A goal to be realized almost immediately is to try to assist the top teams in the conference with at-large selection, increasing the number of BWC teams in the NCAAT. That goal is best realized by limiting the number of tournament teams to those with sufficiently strong RPI that tournament matches are potentially helpful and at the least not harmful. A benchmark to consider here is that a 'bad loss' on the nitty gritty is to a team w/RPI > 100. Teams in the RPI 50 - 100 range are outside of the at-large bubble but viewed as competitive. Looking back through the Figstats RPI Archive all the way to 2016, the BWC hasn't supported a potential conference tournament field greater than four teams using the no RPI > 100 benchmark. Many years it was just three teams. 

- Another BWCT goal is to grow program support primarily for the mid to bottom of the conference. The perennials near the conference top didn't need a conference tournament for generating program support. A related goal is to give the mid to bottom program athletes something more to compete for through the conference season, hopefully elevating and sustaining more competitive play which is hoped feeds back into improvement in play in following seasons and non-conference. For these goals, expanding the tournament a bit beyond what would be 'optimal' for getting additional at-large bids was the conference answer.

If sustainable program support and play is generated in the longer term from the mid to bottom of the conference, traceable to the holding of the tournament, than expansion beyond the 'optimal' four team format to six teams is more than justified. A 'traceable' result might be if conference strength improves to regularly support five teams in the six-team BWCT all with RPI <= 100, say within the next four years. Plan to be around that long?


 

The tournament isn’t really doing any of that. The tournament adds an extra team to the NCAA post-season only when a team outside of the RPI selection range upsets a team within the selection range (or the conference regular season champion). The number of BW teams in the post season RPI selection range in recent years is almost never more than two.

Otherwise, the conference tournament does nothing to improve over-all conference RPI or the total number of RPI eligible teams. It merely shifts (potentially) the team(s) participating in the post-season.