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Post by volleyguy on Nov 27, 2023 16:59:32 GMT -5
Driving interest in an interesting way of saying "selling a lottery ticket to the top 6 teams". And the attendance figures clearly show it didn't "drive interest". there were 4500 disagreeing, along with ? others via streaming you are right, let's go back to no BWCT, bad idea. 1 bid would have been better especially to get 2000 pages of additional fire Robyn threads on a message board that 10% of fans even follow, that would have been much better than a successful tournament which the student-athletes and and most VB fans enjoyed. yeah, the bah humbug assessment is much better! I wasn’t making a case for not having a Big West Tournament. I was critiquing the reasons and justifications being made by you and others for having it. I don’t think it’s inherently unfair to have a tournament. Every one knows the rules ahead of time and the winner gets the bid, just as there’s nothing unfair with the regular season champ getting the auto bid. It’s simply a choice that has been made. All your other arguments are simply a rationalization for that choice. A tournament doesn’t strengthen the conference in any significant way. The things that would strengthen the conference require a lot more effort, resources and competence than a simple tournament. |
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Post by WahineFan44 on Nov 27, 2023 17:05:15 GMT -5
there were 4500 disagreeing, along with ? others via streaming you are right, let's go back to no BWCT, bad idea. 1 bid would have been better especially to get 2000 pages of additional fire Robyn threads on a message board that 10% of fans even follow, that would have been much better than a successful tournament which the student-athletes and and most VB fans enjoyed. yeah, the bah humbug assessment is much better! I wasn’t making a case for not having a Big West Tournament. I was critiquing the reasons and justifications being made by you and others for having it. I don’t think it’s inherently unfair to have a tournament. Every one knows the rules ahead of time and the winner gets the bid, just as there’s nothing unfair with the regular season champ getting the auto bid. It’s simply a choice that has been made. All your other arguments are simply a rationalization for that choice. A tournament doesn’t strengthen the conference in any significant way. The things that would strengthen the conference require a lot more effort, resources and competence than a simple tournament. I agree. This benefited hawaii this year, and I think benefits the conference overall in a sense it gives other teams something to right over/look forward too But even I feel weird saying hawaii is big west champs that was UCSB, they were the best team throughout the year But I guess its the same thing as the ncaa tourney? |
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Post by hapaguy on Nov 27, 2023 17:06:53 GMT -5
Yeah the BW - because of the BWCT, got 2 teams in instead of 1 so that's a good thing isn't it? The only thing that would make it better is if they allowed Hawaii to host every year! It would be a sellout every year and who wouldn't want to plan a trip to Hawaii at the end of November every year? Either that or a neutral site like Dollar Loan Center in Las Vegas (the ninth island!).
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Nov 27, 2023 17:13:35 GMT -5
there were 4500 disagreeing, along with ? others via streaming you are right, let's go back to no BWCT, bad idea. 1 bid would have been better especially to get 2000 pages of additional fire Robyn threads on a message board that 10% of fans even follow, that would have been much better than a successful tournament which the student-athletes and and most VB fans enjoyed. yeah, the bah humbug assessment is much better! I wasn’t making a case for not having a Big West Tournament. I was critiquing the reasons and justifications being made by you and others for having it. I don’t think it’s inherently unfair to have a tournament. Every one knows the rules ahead of time and the winner gets the bid, just as there’s nothing unfair with the regular season champ getting the auto bid. It’s simply a choice that has been made. All your other arguments are simply a rationalization for that choice. A tournament doesn’t strengthen the conference in any significant way. The things that would strengthen the conference require a lot more effort, resources and competence than a simple tournament. in summary, as usual you aren't for anything! 'I'm for pointing out what I state are flaws!' no, I didn't provide rationalization for the choice. I made a narrative based on the facts Facts again below for the VolleyPrick: added a bid added excitement for 4500 and xyx number of those streaming. seems reasonable at this point VolleyPrick didn't enjoy it, but I could be 'flawed' in that assessment. or, maybe those 4500 spent their money and didn't enjoy, so it is based on the assumption they willingly paid money and enjoy. but it is a fact 4500 + invested money. sheesh increased RPI/KPI for at-large teams Hawaii and Beach, added a top 50 win for Beach, two top 50 wins for SB. those are facts. dropped SB's RPI from 38 to 36, my assessment is that is minimal impact IMO. Fact:, unless the student-athletes were lying, they expressed positive experiences from the BWCT. Fact. the BWCT made revenue and had a main sponsor, we don't know the exact money numbers Fact the only coach (Walters) that stated she did not support the BWCT, expressed that she does now those are not narratives, those are facts. my narrative is based on those listed FACTS support continuing with a BWCT and overall and that it was and will be a positive. again, the FACTs support my narrative. If VolleyPrick has other facts to negate that, ok. would be good to see them VolleyPrick stating that the BWCT doesn't strengthen the conference is itself a narrative/opinion based on an opinion. so I guess that increasing bids to teh NCAA does not strengthen the conference. go figure |
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Nov 27, 2023 17:20:33 GMT -5
Yeah the BW - because of the BWCT, got 2 teams in instead of 1 so that's a good thing isn't it? The only thing that would make it better is if they allowed Hawaii to host every year! It would be a sellout every year and who wouldn't want to plan a trip to Hawaii at the end of November every year? Either that or a neutral site like Dollar Loan Center in Las Vegas (the ninth island!). If I'm a coach, why would I agree/consent to have my team go up every year with a permanent advantage to one team, and put my team at a disadvantage every year. Hawaii is not a neutral site. it should be rotated while Dollar Center is nice, it's a non-starter. Bren or Pyramid is more neutral than Hawaii could ever be, due to fan ratios alone. Hawaii fans in Socal pretty much mitigates much of any host HCA in SoCal. Granted, Beach does ahve an edge with the PYramid if I'm a coach of a top team, rotating is the best route unless the an actual neutral site could be found, which would probably be Northridge lol while having Hawaii host ever year is of course better for Hawaii, that's not true for the rest of the Big West, in spite that going to Hawaii is nice in itself though the BWCT is a business trip. |
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Post by HawaiiVB on Nov 27, 2023 17:21:30 GMT -5
BWCT 2023, did it help or hurt? UCSB: No help, definitely hurt. The BWCT gave five teams a chance to steal what in prior years would have been their AQ. Ended up on the selection bubble with a chance of non-selection. Ended up last-four in, a nail biter. Without the BWCT, UCSB gets the BWC AQ and no worries. Hawai'i: Big help. Wins the AQ. Without, UCSB gets the Big West AQ and Hawai'i misses the NCAAT. Hawai'i improved both RPI and KPI significantly with the tournament, helping with earning a 1st round matchup where they could be competitive, and a 2nd-round with a fighting chance. Beach: Big help. Got to host, play at home, got a tournament experience, and a chance to steal the AQ. Didn't hurt their RPI/KPI, got a small boost. Not nearly enough boost to put them within striking distance of the at-large RPI bubble cut-off, but close enough to entertain the thought and make a case. Cal Poly: Helped. RPI/KPI didn't get boosted as a result of the tournament, they were too far out in RPI/KPI to begin with for the tournament to help with that. But they did get an opportunity to steal the AQ and a tournament experience. UC Davis and UC Irvine: Helped. Too far out in RPI/KPI and most other NCAAT criteria for the tournament to help with odds of at-large selection. However, they got a shot at stealing the AQ and a tournament experience. BWC: Helped. Two teams made the NCAAT vs. just one. Six teams got pre-NCAAT tournament experience, possibly without too much additional cost to the conference and participating programs. Although it turned out USCB was a last four selection into the NCAAT, bottom line they still made it in. Lessons learned: - BWCT RPI/KPI boosts aren't likely going to be enough to count on them dragging teams across the at-large selection cut-off. RPI/KPI boosts may marginally benefit some with a better bracket placement should they win the AQ. - BWC teams must still schedule tough non-conference and win some of those to have a worthy resume for the NCAAT. The weakness of the conference requires a tough and successful non-conference. - The BWCT devalues winning the regular conference season by giving the six top conference teams an end-of-season chance at the BW Championship and earning the AQ. Consolation prize for the devaluation of winning the regular conference season is #1 seed and a 1st round bye in the tournament. - Attendance numbers for a SoCal BWCT are likely hurt by competing over four days and bracketing Thanksgiving. - Media streaming numbers aren't yet known. Will they be large enough to mitigate expenses, maybe turn a profit...TBD. Let's be honest--it doesn't help anyone but the tournament winner who wasn't the regular season champion--in this case, it was Hawai'i. These arguments are silly. It didn't help anyone's revenue. It doesn't do much for RPI (and certainly no where near the effect of what a non-conference match would have). There is some benefit in terms of the atmosphere and player experience. But, adding a tournament basically boils down to reshuffling the conference deck and providing an alternate path for a team to claim the auto bid. It's a mulligan for teams (and coaches!) to turn lemons into lemonade. There's nothing wrong with that, but all of the other justifications are basically irrelevant. According to the BW commissioner, these tournaments are a big deal for the conference. He said, paraphrasing, these tournaments will increase the reputation of the BW and the sport of volleyball, including the men's, women's, and beach. He sounds like they are all in with tournaments. So no matter what we think, it is here to stay. |
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Post by HawaiiVB on Nov 27, 2023 17:22:54 GMT -5
I wasn’t making a case for not having a Big West Tournament. I was critiquing the reasons and justifications being made by you and others for having it. I don’t think it’s inherently unfair to have a tournament. Every one knows the rules ahead of time and the winner gets the bid, just as there’s nothing unfair with the regular season champ getting the auto bid. It’s simply a choice that has been made. All your other arguments are simply a rationalization for that choice. A tournament doesn’t strengthen the conference in any significant way. The things that would strengthen the conference require a lot more effort, resources and competence than a simple tournament. I agree. This benefited hawaii this year, and I think benefits the conference overall in a sense it gives other teams something to right over/look forward too But even I feel weird saying hawaii is big west champs that was UCSB, they were the best team throughout the year But I guess its the same thing as the ncaa tourney? According to the BW manual, they both are champions. |
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Post by beachgrad on Nov 27, 2023 17:23:28 GMT -5
The tournament is here to stay.
The real issue is how to improve the bottom 4 teams and not have their sub 300 RPI drag everyone down with them. Their RPI can drag the conference best teams from in, to bubble and then out. It does not take much of a drop for that to happen. I believe the middle of the conference can improve but a doubter about CSUF, CSUN, UCR and Bakersfield.
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Post by volleyguy on Nov 27, 2023 17:23:57 GMT -5
I wasn’t making a case for not having a Big West Tournament. I was critiquing the reasons and justifications being made by you and others for having it. I don’t think it’s inherently unfair to have a tournament. Every one knows the rules ahead of time and the winner gets the bid, just as there’s nothing unfair with the regular season champ getting the auto bid. It’s simply a choice that has been made. All your other arguments are simply a rationalization for that choice. A tournament doesn’t strengthen the conference in any significant way. The things that would strengthen the conference require a lot more effort, resources and competence than a simple tournament. in summary, as usual you aren't for anything! 'I'm for pointing out what I state are flaws!' no, I didn't provide rationalization for the choice. I made a narrative based on the facts Facts again below for the VolleyPrick: added a bid added excitement for 4500 and xyx number of those streaming. seems reasonable at this point VolleyPrick didn't enjoy it, but I could be 'flawed' in that assessment. or, maybe those 4500 spent their money and didn't enjoy, so it is based on the assumption they willingly paid money and enjoy. but it is a fact 4500 + invested money. sheesh increased RPI/KPI for at-large teams Hawaii and Beach, added a top 50 win for Beach, two top 50 wins for Beach. those are facts. dropped SB's RPI from 38 to 36, my assessment is that is minimal impact IMO. Fact:, unless the student-athletes were lying, they expressed positive experiences from the BWCT. Fact. the BWCT made revenue and had a main sponsor, we don't know the exact money numbers Fact the only coach that stated she did not support the BWCT, expressed that she does those are not narratives, those are facts. my narrative is based on those listed FACTS support continuing with a BWCT and overall and that it was and will be a positive. again, the FACTs support my narrative. If VolleyPrick has other facts to negate that, ok. would be good to see them VolleyPrick stating that the BWCT doesn't strengthen the conference is itself a narrative/opinion based on an opinion. so I guess that increasing bids to teh NCAA does not strengthen the conference. go figure Repeating your stupid comments and “narrative” for the umpteenth time, except this time, even longer longer and more disjointed, doesn’t help your argument. If Santa Barbara had won the tournament instead of Hawai’i, would the conference have been strengthened? It’s possible/likely that it would have been a one bid conference. So some results in the tournament can increase bids and some won’t. If increasing the number of bids is what you think strengthens the conference, then resources and effort should be put into getting two or three bids every year regardless of a tournament. |
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Post by volleyguy on Nov 27, 2023 17:26:25 GMT -5
Let's be honest--it doesn't help anyone but the tournament winner who wasn't the regular season champion--in this case, it was Hawai'i. These arguments are silly. It didn't help anyone's revenue. It doesn't do much for RPI (and certainly no where near the effect of what a non-conference match would have). There is some benefit in terms of the atmosphere and player experience. But, adding a tournament basically boils down to reshuffling the conference deck and providing an alternate path for a team to claim the auto bid. It's a mulligan for teams (and coaches!) to turn lemons into lemonade. There's nothing wrong with that, but all of the other justifications are basically irrelevant. According to the BW commissioner, these tournaments are a big deal for the conference. He said, paraphrasing, these tournaments will increase the reputation of the BW and the sport of volleyball, including the men's, women's, and beach. He sounds like they are all in with tournaments. So no matter what we think, it is here to stay. The tournament was voted on before this commissioner was hired. What else is he supposed to say? |
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Post by hapaguy on Nov 27, 2023 17:28:12 GMT -5
Yeah the BW - because of the BWCT, got 2 teams in instead of 1 so that's a good thing isn't it? The only thing that would make it better is if they allowed Hawaii to host every year! It would be a sellout every year and who wouldn't want to plan a trip to Hawaii at the end of November every year? Either that or a neutral site like Dollar Loan Center in Las Vegas (the ninth island!). If I'm a coach, why would I agree/consent to have my team go up every year with a permanent advantage to one team, and put my team at a disadvantage every year. Hawaii is not a neutral site. it should be rotated while Dollar Center is nice, it's a non-starter. Bren or Pyramid is more neutral than Hawaii could ever be, due to fan ratios alone. Hawaii fans in Socal pretty much mitigates much of any host HCA in SoCal. Granted, Beach does ahve an edge with the PYramid if I'm a coach of a top team, rotating is the best route unless the an actual neutral site could be found, which would probably be Northridge lol while having Hawaii host ever year is of course better for Hawaii, that's not true for the rest of the Big West, in spite that going to Hawaii is nice in itself though the BWCT is a business trip. LOL I understand why no BW coach would want the tourney played here annually. It's more my wish and probably most Hawaii fans wish. Financially (like you said, it "is a business trip") it would make the most sense though as the tourney would be a sellout every year. Also, I never said Hawaii was a neutral site LOL. Why do you think the Dollar Loan Center a non-starter? Finances? |
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Post by beachgrad on Nov 27, 2023 17:32:38 GMT -5
Outside the possibility of increasing the amount of bids the main reason is to give teams something to play and compete for. Without a tournament all but UCSB would be sitting on their hands the last two weeks of the regular season. Middle teams are fighting to be the 5th and 6th entries and the top teams are fighting to get the seeding to improve their chances to get to the NCAAs; seeding and possible higher RPI for at large berths. I do not see how this is not good for the conference.
From a competitive standpoint, it makes no sense to have a permanent site for the tournament and especially at the location of the historically top team.
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Post by HawaiiVB on Nov 27, 2023 17:33:28 GMT -5
The tournament is here to stay. The real issue is how to improve the bottom 4 teams and not have their sub 300 RPI drag everyone down with them. Their RPI can drag the conference best teams from in, to bubble and then out. It does not take much of a drop for that to happen. I believe the middle of the conference can improve but a doubter about CSUF, CSUN, UCR and Bakersfield. In an indirect way, the BW needs to re-sponsor football. The Pac 2 will be looking to poach schools in about two years, but they must be making a list currently for schools they want to permanently align with. The BW institutes could be future viable candidates if they also have football. It has been proven that the conferences with good football will be poached into the power conferences eventually. Once the mega-conferences are formed, the BW will be eating the crumbs with difficulty in scheduling RPI-heavy schools, in most sports because they won't have holes to fill in its scheduling. You can mark this down for future reference. It has already been discussed that schools like Hawai'i will have a harder time scheduling current Pac-12 schools once they shift over to the Big 10, Big 12, ACC, etc. The BW is short-sighted if they do not recognize that all top conferences go through football. |
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Post by WahineFan44 on Nov 27, 2023 17:34:53 GMT -5
I agree. This benefited hawaii this year, and I think benefits the conference overall in a sense it gives other teams something to right over/look forward too But even I feel weird saying hawaii is big west champs that was UCSB, they were the best team throughout the year But I guess its the same thing as the ncaa tourney? According to the BW manual, they both are champions. That makes me feel better One awarded regular season champ the other reward tournament champs (and in all likely tbh, the big west regular season champ will be an at large, barring a HORRIBLE non conference slate. |
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Post by volleyguy on Nov 27, 2023 17:39:46 GMT -5
Outside the possibility of increasing the amount of bids the main reason is to give teams something to play and compete for. Without a tournament all but UCSB would be sitting on their hands the last two weeks of the regular season. Middle teams are fighting to be the 5th and 6th entries and the top teams are fighting to get the seeding to improve their chances to get to the NCAAs; seeding and possible higher RPI for at large berths. I do not see how this is not good for the conference. From a competitive standpoint, it makes no sense to have a permanent site for the tournament and especially at the location of the historically top team. More conference play does not improve RPI generally because a win also results in a corresponding loss in your opponents record. Non-conference scheduling is where RPI can be influenced. |
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