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Post by dunninla3 on Nov 6, 2023 15:34:08 GMT -5
Had this conversation in another thread, but today came across new information.
*edit* fixed the Title to keep focus on the primary issue.
As it happens I wrestled in HS so I continue to follow wresting, esp. world championships, and the 2023 WC.
I noted that several Russian wrestlers competed, and as expected several won Gold, Silver and Bronze medals in their weight class, competing as neutral athletes. Several were exciting matches to watch. Amazing athletes are amazing no matter what country they were born in, or what country they live in now. There was some incredible wresting that fans would have been deprived of had the IWF banned Russian athletes the way the FIVB has. That reminded me that I miss, as a fan, watching Krasilnikov, Semenov, all of them really. Former world and Olympic medalists some in the prime of their careers... not playing, or more to the point, me not getting to see them play. That made me conclude... it must not be the IOC that is banning Russian athletes in FIVB, it must be FIVB itself.
So I looked further, and it seems there is an ability for each sport's governing body to deal with the Russian issue (not just invasion of Ukraine, but also the doping scandal from 2016).
Wrestling allows Russians and Belorusians to compete as ANA (Authorized Neutral Athletes). So do a lot of other sports.
Now I'm wondering how each governing body actually decides whether to allow ANA athletes to participate in World Championships and Olympics. Was a vote taken of FIVB member Federations? Was the decision taken by the FIVB itself at an official meeting?
At the same time FIVB seems to have no problem allowing Steven Van de Velde to participate and represent the Netherlands, after his conviction for raping a 12 year old girl in the UK. Many member Federations in FIVB are from countries that do not allow convicted felons to enter their country, under varying circumstances. Van de Velde "withdrew" from the Edmonton and Montreal events. Turns out Canada does not allow felons convicted of crimes that would result in 10 years maximum sentence in Canada from entering. Philippines does not allow entrance of any person convicted of a crime involving "moral terpitude". Not sure what moral terpitude is, but I'm quite sure child rape would fall under that term. Australia similarly does not allow entrance of convicted felons. The US is similar. Nor does China. I can't even imagine how the UK would handle the situation if Van de Velde were to play apply to play there.
Anyway, you've got an athlete with 100% personal responsibility for a reprehensible act allowed to play in an official Olympic sport, and athletes that had 0% personal responsibility for a reprehensible act barred from playing.
Your thoughts?
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Post by stephenasinjin on Nov 6, 2023 17:17:18 GMT -5
We’ve worn out the fact that Vandevelde is allowed to play (we’re all pretty much in agreement that he shouldn’t be playing) so let’s talk about Russia.
In the back of my mind I’ve been very bummed about no Russia at these events and it’s also made me question how legitimately good a lot of the E16 teams not names Mol/Sorum, Ahman/Hellvig really are.
Krasilnikov for me was a beautiful hybrid between Wickler offensively (both of them absolutely bombing the ball offensively with enough shotmaking ability to keep defenders honest) had more mobility/defensive ability similar to pre-injury Sorum at times. Maybe defensive ability resembling Perusic.
Semenov was a very skilled big and not as gifted as Stoya but still fascinating to watch.
Stoyanovskiy was by light years the 2nd best boy in Tokyo, bringing a physicality unmatched by anybody else in the world in my opinion. Similar to prime Phil/Evandro.
Leshukov really found his stride in 2021 as a high level defender playing with Semenov and it looks like he’s now playing with Stoya.
Perusic/Schweiner: significantly better than they were in 2021 currently, but Krasilnikov/Stoya consistently took their lunch money.
Ehlers is just objectively worse than both of these Russian bigs.
To me none of the Dutch teams are as complete as Krasilnikov/Stoya were. Brouwer didn’t produce enough digs/Meeuwsen didn’t get enough blocks. Krasilnikov was kind of a more polished version of De Groot. Boerhmans after his injury just hasn’t looked himself in my opinion unfortunately. Hopefully he gets back to where he was like early 2022.
I’d love to watch them face off vs. Nicolai/Cottafava and Losiak/Bryl. Fascinating style matchups.
I’m not a Carambula believer unfortunately as much as I’d love to be. It just feels like his matchup vs every E16 team is about getting the other team into a funk so they’re playing at like a 5/10, but if he can’t make them play at a 5, he’ll never beat them at a 7 or 8 vs. so many of the other E16 teams produce matches where both are playing at an 8 or so and they’re slugging it out in the 3rd set.
Stoya probably outserves Evandro these days, and I don’t think George/Andre can play perfectly enough to consistently beat him.
I’d love to see how Partains option game matches up with both of the Russian teams.
I think I mentioned pretty much everybody relevant.
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Post by Murina on Nov 6, 2023 19:05:16 GMT -5
Your answer about why some Russians can compete and others can't is in this article: ArticleFrom the article: The International Volleyball Federation (FIVB) has announced that it has decided to keep its ban on Russian and Belarusian teams. The move is in line with the latest stance of the International Olympic Committee (IOC) which has recommended for Russian and Belarusian teams to remain banned. The IOC ruled in March that athletes from Russia and Belarus should be allowed to return as individuals neutrals, provided they do not support the war in Ukraine and are not affiliated with the military, but the recommended ban on teams from the two nations should remain in place.
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Post by dunninla3 on Nov 6, 2023 19:25:23 GMT -5
Your answer about why some Russians can compete and others can't is in this article: ArticleFrom the article: The International Volleyball Federation (FIVB) has announced that it has decided to keep its ban on Russian and Belarusian teams. The move is in line with the latest stance of the International Olympic Committee (IOC) which has recommended for Russian and Belarusian teams to remain banned. The IOC ruled in March that athletes from Russia and Belarus should be allowed to return as individuals neutrals, provided they do not support the war in Ukraine and are not affiliated with the military, but the recommended ban on teams from the two nations should remain in place. I don't think I understand your post. Particularly "The IOC ruled in March that athletes from Russia and Belarus should be allowed to return as individuals neutrals, provided they do not support the war in Ukraine and are not affiliated with the military," ...
Doesn't that mean the FIVB should follow the IOCs ruling and allow athletes that used to represent the Russian Federation to represent themselves as neutrals on the Pro Tour? And qualify for the Olympics by participating in the Pro Tour? Or are you implying that these Russian volleyball players have gone on record as supporting the war against the Ukraine, or are affiliated with the military? Or what did you mean by "why some Russians can compete and others are not"
Like Stephenasinjin, I'd really like to see some of these players actually ... play.
Can these athletes compete as Approve Neutral Athletes, as was the case in the World Wrestling Championships?
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Post by stevie on Nov 6, 2023 19:34:18 GMT -5
Your answer about why some Russians can compete and others can't is in this article: ArticleFrom the article: The International Volleyball Federation (FIVB) has announced that it has decided to keep its ban on Russian and Belarusian teams. The move is in line with the latest stance of the International Olympic Committee (IOC) which has recommended for Russian and Belarusian teams to remain banned. The IOC ruled in March that athletes from Russia and Belarus should be allowed to return as individuals neutrals, provided they do not support the war in Ukraine and are not affiliated with the military, but the recommended ban on teams from the two nations should remain in place. I don't think I understand your post. Particularly "The IOC ruled in March that athletes from Russia and Belarus should be allowed to return as individuals neutrals, provided they do not support the war in Ukraine and are not affiliated with the military," ...
Doesn't that mean the FIVB should follow the IOCs ruling and allow athletes that used to represent the Russian Federation to represent themselves as neutrals on the Pro Tour? And qualify for the Olympics by participating in the Pro Tour? Or are you implying that these Russian volleyball players have gone on record as supporting the war against the Ukraine, or are affiliated with the military? Or what did you mean by "why some Russians can compete and others are not"
Like Stephenasinjin, I'd really like to see some of these players actually ... play.
Can these athletes compete as Approve Neutral Athletes, as was the case in the World Wrestling Championships?
The article is saying that athletes from individual sports can compete as neutrals, but there are no neutral teams in team sports. All teams in team sports represent a country at the Olympics. A beach volleyball pair is considered a team. Hence no Russian teams allowed. They can. But they'll have to find some other individual (i.e. non-team) based event to compete in because beach volleyball is considered a team sport.
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Post by dunninla3 on Nov 6, 2023 20:21:26 GMT -5
OK, so it's about a pair rather than an individual competing.
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Post by robvolei on Nov 7, 2023 0:05:31 GMT -5
Swimming isn't allowing Russian and Belarusian's to swim in team races but are letting them compete in individual races. Honestly Stoya could be one of the best blockers ever and he has been banned in his prime. Also, Slava is one of the best defenders of his era. Their battles with the Norway are some of the best modern beach volleyball games ever. Olympics aside, the FIVB has still banned Russian's from competing on their tour. UEFA/FIFA is trying to allow Russian youth teams (mainly U/17) to start participating again. "But the proposal was widely unpopular and at least 12 of its 55 member federations said their teams would not play against Russian representatives." So 43 national governing bodies were willing to come to some kind of compromise to let Russian youth teams play again. That's decent traction. www.theguardian.com/football/2023/oct/10/uefa-forced-into-stalling-plans-to-reintegrate-russias-under-17-teamsIt's still sad that no beach volleyball players have spoken up for their Russian "friends". A lot of them have unfollowed them on social media as well. Pretty lame.
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Post by dunninla3 on Nov 7, 2023 0:58:54 GMT -5
It's still sad that no beach volleyball players have spoken up for their Russian "friends". A lot of them have unfollowed them on social media as well. Pretty lame. If the USA did something stupid like install a CIA controlled puppet dictator in some Central American country... and some of my international friends unfollowed me on social media because of that, well, I suppose they'd be right... I did after all choose each of my parents after a thorough in-womb review, and made them guarantee that I would be born in the USA.
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Post by guest2 on Nov 7, 2023 1:47:40 GMT -5
It's still sad that no beach volleyball players have spoken up for their Russian "friends". A lot of them have unfollowed them on social media as well. Pretty lame. If the USA did something stupid like install a CIA controlled puppet dictator in some Central American country... and some of my international friends unfollowed me on social media because of that, well, I suppose they'd be right... I did after all choose each of my parents after a thorough in-womb review, and made them guarantee that I would be born in the USA. It really depends on what was said or done. In the scenario you mention, I imagine if you had two friends, one an Aussie and the other a citizen of said country, one might ask you to speak out against your government and if you declined unfriend you reasonably, while the other might see what your country did as wrong but not care whether you said so or not. We have no idea, unless they have publicly said, how the Russian players feel about what their country is doing. There are a bunch of players on the World Tour who are from countries either directly affected (Ukraine itself) or who share a border with Russia. Its easy to see how they might be less forgiving than a team from Chile. The individual v team distinction with regard to who can compete as neutral may be the dumbest thing I can think of
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Post by robvolei on Nov 7, 2023 3:00:04 GMT -5
It's still sad that no beach volleyball players have spoken up for their Russian "friends". A lot of them have unfollowed them on social media as well. Pretty lame. If the USA did something stupid like install a CIA controlled puppet dictator in some Central American country... and some of my international friends unfollowed me on social media because of that, well, I suppose they'd be right... I did after all choose each of my parents after a thorough in-womb review, and made them guarantee that I would be born in the USA. HAHAHAHA. Reminds, me of this Carlin quote: “Pride should be reserved for something you achieve or obtain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth. Being Irish isn't a skill... it's a !!!!###$$$!!!ing genetic accident. You wouldn't say I'm proud to be 5'11"; I'm proud to have a pre-disposition for colon cancer.” ― George Carlin
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Post by larabeach on Nov 7, 2023 3:25:36 GMT -5
If the USA did something stupid like install a CIA controlled puppet dictator in some Central American country... and some of my international friends unfollowed me on social media because of that, well, I suppose they'd be right... I did after all choose each of my parents after a thorough in-womb review, and made them guarantee that I would be born in the USA. It really depends on what was said or done. In the scenario you mention, I imagine if you had two friends, one an Aussie and the other a citizen of said country, one might ask you to speak out against your government and if you declined unfriend you reasonably, while the other might see what your country did as wrong but not care whether you said so or not. We have no idea, unless they have publicly said, how the Russian players feel about what their country is doing. There are a bunch of players on the World Tour who are from countries either directly affected (Ukraine itself) or who share a border with Russia. Its easy to see how they might be less forgiving than a team from Chile. The individual v team distinction with regard to who can compete as neutral may be the dumbest thing I can think of I remember Stoya and Krasilnikov posted black "No war" posts on IG when the war broke out. Krasilnikov's was erased soon (24 hours or so). Stoya's lasted longer, not sure how long. Back then such posts were getting Russians jailed.
stephenasinjin forgot, or wasn't considering, the women in his post. I think they could be Elite16 regulars and some younger ones could have emerged (maybe?) as interesting challengers.
I was never a fan of the banning of indivudual athletes because of the crimes of their gobverment, this came under IOC recommendation (back then the FIVB was strongly critizied for being too slow) and after the ROC debacle in Tokio with the doping scandals.
Edit: I miss the others as athletes, but not Semenov. His antics were too much for my taste.
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Post by larabeach on Nov 7, 2023 3:38:25 GMT -5
Also form the linked article:
"Volleyball and beach volleyball join athletics, badminton, equestrian, sport climbing and surfing in maintaining their bans on Russia and Belarus.
Archery, canoeing, cycling, fencing, golf, judo, modern pentathlon, shooting, skateboarding, table tennis, taekwondo, triathlon, weightlifting and wrestling have all agreed to allow Russian and Belarusian athletes to return as neutrals following the IOC’s new stance."
This doesn't look like an "individual vs team sport" to me.
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Post by guest2 on Nov 7, 2023 4:04:21 GMT -5
It really depends on what was said or done. In the scenario you mention, I imagine if you had two friends, one an Aussie and the other a citizen of said country, one might ask you to speak out against your government and if you declined unfriend you reasonably, while the other might see what your country did as wrong but not care whether you said so or not. We have no idea, unless they have publicly said, how the Russian players feel about what their country is doing. There are a bunch of players on the World Tour who are from countries either directly affected (Ukraine itself) or who share a border with Russia. Its easy to see how they might be less forgiving than a team from Chile. The individual v team distinction with regard to who can compete as neutral may be the dumbest thing I can think of I remember Stoya and Krasilnikov posted black "No war" posts on IG when the war broke out. Krasilnikov's was erased soon (24 hours or so). Stoya's lasted longer, not sure how long. Back then such posts were getting Russians jailed. stephenasinjin forgot, or wasn't considering, the women in his post. I think they could be Elite16 regulars and some younger ones could have emerged (maybe?) as interesting challengers. I was never a fan of the banning of indivudual athletes because of the crimes of their gobverment, this came under IOC recommendation (back then the FIVB was strongly critizied for being too slow) and after the ROC debacle in Tokio with the doping scandals. Edit: I miss the others as athletes, but not Semenov. His antics were too much for my taste.
I miss seeing how the giant Russians would deal with Menesh and the Swedes, but I agree, Nadezda and Svetlana are a bigger loss. Would be like adding another Clancy/Mariafe to the mix (although not quite as good)
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Post by stevie on Nov 7, 2023 7:29:42 GMT -5
Also form the linked article: "Volleyball and beach volleyball join athletics, badminton, equestrian, sport climbing and surfing in maintaining their bans on Russia and Belarus. Archery, canoeing, cycling, fencing, golf, judo, modern pentathlon, shooting, skateboarding, table tennis, taekwondo, triathlon, weightlifting and wrestling have all agreed to allow Russian and Belarusian athletes to return as neutrals following the IOC’s new stance." This doesn't look like an "individual vs team sport" to me. The IOC's stance is that Russian and Belarusian teams are banned, but sports federations can still allow individual athletes to compete as neutrals (i.e. not representing any country). So some federations have decided to allow neutral athletes like the IOC recommends, but even then those athletes can only compete in the individual events, not the team ones. So they cannot win team medals. See the 2023 weightlifting world championships for example, where Belarusian athletes won individual medals as "neutrals", but none of their results counted towards the team ranking because there was officially no Belarusian team allowed. Whether they should allow individual neutral athletes is a moot point for the FIVB though, because there are no individual events in volleyball. So unless they want to stick their necks out and go against the IOC (they won't), then they'll continue to ban Russian and Belarusian teams.
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Post by acrossthepond on Nov 7, 2023 8:01:10 GMT -5
One more thing which makes it a bit harder to let Russian teams participating again: The structure in Russia is very state-centric, meaning that the athletes more or less get a regular salary by the Russian state and can be seen somewhat as employees of the state. So you have pretty much the opposite situation as in the US for example where the pro teams are floating around and hope for some money from the national federation.
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