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Post by Winbabywin on Mar 9, 2024 9:50:08 GMT -5
So just in the last couple of weeks, USAV emphasized a rule modification of the back row attack fault. If a back row player contacts the ball in the plane, SIMULTANEOUSLY as an opposing player, it's a play-on. But if it is not simultaneous, it is still a fault.
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Post by haterade on Mar 9, 2024 10:01:51 GMT -5
So just in the last couple of weeks, USAV modified an aspect of the back row attack fault. If a back row player contacts the ball in the plane, SIMULTANEOUSLY as an opposing player, it's a play-on. But if it is not simultaneous, it is still a fault. When would this situation happen? A back row setter joust?
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Post by uofaGRAD on Mar 9, 2024 10:06:29 GMT -5
so backrow setters can joust overpasses now?
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Post by Winbabywin on Mar 9, 2024 10:24:15 GMT -5
Correct! A back row player can legally joust now
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Post by AmeriCanvbdad on Mar 9, 2024 10:29:16 GMT -5
Wouldn't this more apply to when a back row setter is trying to set a ball going over the net the same time an opposing player makes contact with the ball? I don't think it means a back row setter can joust, but I could be wrong about that.
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Post by slxpress on Mar 9, 2024 11:28:19 GMT -5
Maybe I'm the only one, but I feel like the title is a bit misleading. Which is okay. It's easy enough to read the thread and pick up on what is being discussed.
My first thought when reading the title is that back row attacks from pins on bics and d-balls were no longer going to be allowed *kind of*. Turns out the OP meant setters wouldn't be called every time for back row attack faults when touching the ball at the plane, as long as it's simultaneous with an opposing player.
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Post by austintatious on Mar 9, 2024 14:59:37 GMT -5
A couple of questions. 1. This Rules Clarification, it has been published and sent to regions to disseminate to all? Or is the 10-15 years ago of "word of mouth?" 2. Is it effective immediately or a date in the future so everyone can be on the same page,
I don't always like the NCAA rule changes, but I admire that they are announced in the Jan-Feb time frame every two years and implemented the following August. In non change years they can make clarifications to take effect in Aug.
I have broken bread in the last month with at least 3-4 referees at PVF matches, all in USA Volleyball official's hierarchy and not heard this discussed.
Can someone enlighten me please?
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Post by tablealgebra on Mar 9, 2024 15:58:45 GMT -5
Wouldn't this more apply to when a back row setter is trying to set a ball going over the net the same time an opposing player makes contact with the ball? I don't think it means a back row setter can joust, but I could be wrong about that. Lol just kidding, read the actual flier on next page Agree - with a joust, especially with a shorter setter, the opponent just "needs to get there first" and then it will be a back-row violation. However, if a setter reaches to get a ball and an opponent contacts it second, it will not be a violation.
From a practical standpoint, I would think that referees would default towards assuming the (shorter) setter did not get there in time on a joust, but unless the opponent is clearly there first will assume the setter did get in time if they are just trying to set the ball.
I'm not sure I like the rule but I get the point - get rid of an unpleasant (for the viewer and probably most players) situation where the whole point of the blocker's action is to create a rules violation, as opposed to actually making a play.
Another thought - backrow setters won't be able to joust since (assuming the blocker knows the setter is back row) once the setter goes up to joust, all the blocker has to do is let the ball go and the setter has no play, since if they actually hit the ball over the net they will clearly be in the air and thus back-row attacking
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Post by mikegarrison on Mar 9, 2024 16:03:47 GMT -5
Leaving aside the misleading thread title and also the question of whether this is a rumor or some kind of official rule change....
I am of two minds about setters being called for back row violations. On the one hand, the principle that back row players may not block or attack from in front of the 3 meter line is pretty fundamental to volleyball as we know it. So relaxing the rules against that seems like a questionable thing to do -- like when they tried to make it legal to touch the net.
On the other hand, however, it has always struck me as unfair that a setter can go up to make a play that is normally completely legal -- playing a pass that penetrates the plane of the net -- but if an opposing player touches the ball then the setter's actions become a violation.
A backrow setter should not be allowed to "joust", and if they touch the ball above net height and then it goes over the net that should be a violation. But if they are trying to play the ball to their own side of the court, should it really be a violation just because an opponent manages to touch it?
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Post by mikegarrison on Mar 9, 2024 16:06:19 GMT -5
if they actually hit the ball over the net they will clearly be in the air and thus back-row attacking "In the air" doesn't matter. What matters is if the ball is over the height of the net (which it always will be in a "joust" situation).
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Post by Winbabywin on Mar 9, 2024 17:11:00 GMT -5
USAV made this change at the beginning of the club season, but it wasn't highly "advertised". I'm guessing 2 things have been happening in the last couple of months: 1. Officials aren't calling it 2. They are calling it and the coaches are arguing.
USAV just sent out a reminder email to officials (because I am one) reminding us about the new modification.
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Post by mervinswerved on Mar 9, 2024 17:20:43 GMT -5
What is the rationale for this rule interpretation?
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Post by slxpress on Mar 9, 2024 17:22:06 GMT -5
Leaving aside the misleading thread title and also the question of whether this is a rumor or some kind of official rule change.... I am of two minds about setters being called for back row violations. On the one hand, the principle that back row players may not block or attack from in front of the 3 meter line is pretty fundamental to volleyball as we know it. So relaxing the rules against that seems like a questionable thing to do -- like when they tried to make it legal to touch the net. On the other hand, however, it has always struck me as unfair that a setter can go up to make a play that is normally completely legal -- playing a pass that penetrates the plane of the net -- but if an opposing player touches the ball then the setter's actions become a violation. A backrow setter should not be allowed to "joust", and if they touch the ball above net height and then it goes over the net that should be a violation. But if they are trying to play the ball to their own side of the court, should it really be a violation just because an opponent manages to touch it? It feels like that’s exactly what the rumored possible rule change would be trying to address. I hate the idea that suddenly the back row setter is able to joust. To me that’s one of the clear advantages of having rotations with a front row setter that shouldn’t be given to a back row setter lightly. But I’m with you. It’s never set right with me that a back row setter is pretty helpless with sets closer to the net by default. If they’re truly trying to make a play on the ball on a 2nd contact to allow a teammate to hit it over the net on the 3rd contact, I don’t like the idea it’s an automatic fault if the ball is in the plane and an opposing player so much as touches it. It feels like a cheap point to me. I don’t begrudge teams scoring that way, because that’s how the rules are written and enforced, but if they’re trying to address it in some way that can be clearly called by officials, I’m all for it. I guess we’ll need to know more information about this rumored rule change.
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Post by slxpress on Mar 9, 2024 17:27:47 GMT -5
USAV made this change at the beginning of the club season, but it wasn't highly "advertised". I'm guessing 2 things have been happening in the last couple of months: 1. Officials aren't calling it 2. They are calling it and the coaches are arguing. USAV just sent out a reminder email to officials (because I am one) reminding us about the new modification. So it’s not a rumored change. As I’ve already posted, I guess I don’t like the idea that a back row setter can make an offensive play on the ball at the net - which, IMO, a “joust” absolutely is. On the other hand, I do feel like they should be able to try to play a ball in the plane on 2nd contact to get it to a teammate, without fearing an automatic fault if an opponent touches it while they’re doing so. But I can’t tell based on your description that’s what the rule does and/or is intended to do. How do you feel about calling it? Does it seem like a relatively clean rule to enforce, or are there issues in terms of subjectivity that prevent a consistent enforcement?
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Post by eyeroll2021 on Mar 9, 2024 20:02:40 GMT -5
This is weird, given that much of the rationale for the rule change on second contact doubles was to have less judgment calls and complaints about officiating. Doesn't this just invite a bunch of disputes on whether contact was simultaneous etc
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