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Post by james23 on Apr 25, 2024 12:01:37 GMT -5
People just straight up dismissing this argument is funny to me. It’s absolutely talked about in coaching circles and is worthy of a discussion. Every top volleyball league has a foreign player limit. I see both sides, definitely elevates the game but we’re not far away from a school winning a title starting 5 or 6 foreigners. It is not the job of ncaa coaches to facilitate USA volleyball but it certainly leaves a sour taste in everyone’s mouth besides Hawaii and LBSU fans. But like it’s been mentioned, bringing in foreign players is not new to NCAA sports. Happens all the time in golf for example. To the people saying “what should Hawaii do?” Lol the exact same “get good” argument can be thrown back and used to say “Get better at recruiting”. I believe we’re about to enter a lil bit of a down generation for USA volleyball so it wil be very interesting to see how this discussion happens over time. I think it is worth mentioning many “elite” foreigners do not break through on their respective countries teams anyway besides Nikolov and Bulgaria is not the powerhouse it used to be. sorry, but Big West schools are hanging in by a thread. be careful what you wish for or D1 Volleyball may become D1 Water Polo, Only 4 schools winning NCs, in a fabricated so called 'league' and not much else. it's larger than Volleyball, and if you restrict Long Beach and Hawaii in VB, you drive one more stake in these schools and the possibility they (and other Big West ) schools just give up and join the California CCAA eventually, by the way Big West is ONLY D1 conference sponsoring MVB. the Big West MBB league is being DECIMATED this year with every 1st team player transferring out, adn every top teams rebuilding. Not unique to Big West basketball. BIg West schools didn't create this crap. the big boys did. I'd love to hear Speraw who was giddy about a Big 10 conference, so maybe he does like the water polo model. pointing out LOng Beach and Hawaii is bad in so many ways. St. Mary's is surviving and remaining relevant in MBB for D1 SOLEY by international pipelines. If long time programs like UCI in the BW have to rely on foreign players to stay relevant then there is a much bigger problem. Those schools should have no problem recruiting USA high schoolers and if they do you should be mad at your programs, not at me lol. I wasn’t trying to single out any teams btw, I felt the same way when Ohio State won titles on the backs of Szsersen and Maxime Hervoir. |
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Post by james23 on Apr 25, 2024 12:04:26 GMT -5
People just straight up dismissing this argument is funny to me. It’s absolutely talked about in coaching circles and is worthy of a discussion. Every top volleyball league has a foreign player limit. I see both sides, definitely elevates the game but we’re not far away from a school winning a title starting 5 or 6 foreigners. It is not the job of ncaa coaches to facilitate USA volleyball but it certainly leaves a sour taste in everyone’s mouth besides Hawaii and LBSU fans. But like it’s been mentioned, bringing in foreign players is not new to NCAA sports. Happens all the time in golf for example. To the people saying “what should Hawaii do?” Lol the exact same “get good” argument can be thrown back and used to say “Get better at recruiting”. I believe we’re about to enter a lil bit of a down generation for USA volleyball so it wil be very interesting to see how this discussion happens over time. I think it is worth mentioning many “elite” foreigners do not break through on their respective countries teams anyway besides Nikolov and Bulgaria is not the powerhouse it used to be. Leagues are businesses tho. NCAA Volleyball are part of higher education. So unless you can put it into law to limit the amount of foreign enrollment, you have to treat sports the same way. What's next- you can't have a player that doesn't have legal residency in your state? The NCAA has power to make rules without affecting higher education. Just because you can only have 2 international players on the court at the same time does not mean more internationals can’t be enrolled. Just like you used to have to sit out a year when you transferred, the student could still attend classes at the new school, just couldn’t play their sport for a year. |
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Post by noblesol on Apr 25, 2024 12:21:17 GMT -5
The California UC system does not have a written policy limiting international student-athlete participation by quota in any sport. The NCAA does not have such a limitation for any of its sports. Neither does the NAIA. They all welcome international student-athletes that meet collegiate eligibility requirements. No quotas, and no 'unwritten' policy. It's considered and intentional policy.
Anti-foreign participation limitation by quota is a protection scheme. It's as ugly in nature and practice as it sounds. Limiting exposure to international competition ensures a status quo level of mediocrity. It justifies its existence by virtuous pose, to hide its underlying xenophobia. It spreads a mentality that history has shown to be dangerous and ultimately, self-harming.
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Apr 25, 2024 12:43:57 GMT -5
sorry, but Big West schools are hanging in by a thread. be careful what you wish for or D1 Volleyball may become D1 Water Polo, Only 4 schools winning NCs, in a fabricated so called 'league' and not much else. it's larger than Volleyball, and if you restrict Long Beach and Hawaii in VB, you drive one more stake in these schools and the possibility they (and other Big West ) schools just give up and join the California CCAA eventually, by the way Big West is ONLY D1 conference sponsoring MVB. the Big West MBB league is being DECIMATED this year with every 1st team player transferring out, adn every top teams rebuilding. Not unique to Big West basketball. BIg West schools didn't create this crap. the big boys did. I'd love to hear Speraw who was giddy about a Big 10 conference, so maybe he does like the water polo model. pointing out LOng Beach and Hawaii is bad in so many ways. St. Mary's is surviving and remaining relevant in MBB for D1 SOLEY by international pipelines. If long time programs like UCI in the BW have to rely on foreign players to stay relevant then there is a much bigger problem. Those schools should have no problem recruiting USA high schoolers and if they do you should be mad at your programs, not at me lol. I wasn’t trying to single out any teams btw, I felt the same way when Ohio State won titles on the backs of Szsersen and Maxime Hervoir. I'm not mad at you. not mad at anybody, the D1 sports landscape is what it is. I simply will not accept that providing a limitation on any Big West school is acceptable, when there is apparently no limitation now to funneling any amount of money to Speraw's university. hey, he's the national team coach, and wants a a Big 10 MVB conference, so from that I assume he wants to hog all the titles and wants a D1 composed of 4-6 universities like effectively water polo is lol. the behavior is now to say screw anybody else but the Big 10. it's a reasonable conclusion from the actions of those schools (UCLA, PSU, OSU, USC) that their desire to not have any other schools (like Beach and Hawaii) in their league. the problem going forward with MVB isn't the little guys, they are all trying to make a go. it's the actions of the Big boys, like insisting on 85 team football rosters lol, that are F'ing up the rest, but they don't care. When Speraw comes out and EXPLICITLY challenges football industrial complex that he is in fact a part of, and says 55 man football rosters, so other sports (like MVB) might be able to get sponsored, then I'll change my tune. Until then, he's just part of the pigs of D1, and has no credibility, national coach or not. But he won't. |
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Post by uhalum808 on Apr 25, 2024 12:48:40 GMT -5
this is dumbest thing, so while P5s can load up their roster full of Fab 50 players every year, Hawaii has struggled to do the same for years. Hawaii is already at a disadvantage being 5000 miles from the continent surrounded by water. Not too many Fab 50s would want to be that far away from home. So you want to handicap us even more by limiting international? Plus for years all our top recruits from the islands maybe 80 percent of them go mainland colleges because their facilities and resources outclass UH in every way. Or they simply want to get away and have that P5 experience and prestige. So where are we supposed to recruit? It took Charlie Wade almost 15 years to build his program since becoming head coach and over 10 years till he won his first national championship and now the first time he gets a stacked recruiting class of international players you want to complain? I mean if you gotta worry about non P5 schools out recruiting you internationally then maybe your school got bigger problems and needs to hire a new coach. Otherwise GTFOH and cry some more.
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Post by abelincoln on Apr 25, 2024 12:55:36 GMT -5
2 intl player limit. That’s how it was a while back. Hawaii did fine w their 2 Israeli’s in the 90’s. Who cares how this affects USA vb. Think about how it tweaks hs/club kids that are deserving. As a parent who loves and played vb, I almost wish my kid chose a different sport that provided for more viable opportunities. Men’s vb is unique compared to other ncaa sports because of how small it is. Club and hs vb for boys is growing but where do they even get to go beyond it. If we had as many programs as ncaa golf then I’d probably be unphased by intl players but we don’t. At what point does the hs/club level begin to shrink when parents realize it’s an expensive waste of time trying to vie for 2 walk on spots at 5 schools. I've never bought in to the idea one funds youth VB in order for a schollie.....for any sport not just VB as a parent, if college funding is a reason, then just put that $200 a month for club (or whatever it is) for 14 years in a better fund, and you don't need a schollie. of course, explain that to your kid so I personally think the entire 'target a schollie' mentality won't have any affect on shrinking anything. I think distaste with other sports (football and club basketball or baseball) and simply better enjoyment with VB alone (like happened with Soccer) is going to keep growth going. D1 is so structurally screwed up as to I have little hope for much more D1 VB growt at all Sorry, to clarify…not targeting a scholarship but rather targeting real playing opportunities. Even better, athletic access into schools. Not getting money is one thing but it softens the blow if it gets you into a school that you’d want to go to. Just getting into college is insane these days. Sports is an access point. VB has very limited access points with admissions and even fewer w intl players taking more and more spots. All of that said, I acknowledge that all professional opportunities are overseas so perhaps it’s even-steven. I just undercut my own original argument. Need to sleep on it. $200/month…I wish. |
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Post by soljah808 on Apr 25, 2024 13:02:37 GMT -5
I'll agree to a limit on international players on a college team when the same 5 of so mainland schools limit having 3 sets of fab 50 teams of players hoarding itself on their team bench.
Cause what's the difference with international players starting vs those same 5 or so teams stacked to the brim with fab 50 players that a vast majority on their bench also won't play either? All American fab 50 players mind you....
Until then, Hawaii will continue to recruit internationally because they can and will for more than 2 decades.
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Apr 25, 2024 13:04:10 GMT -5
I've never bought in to the idea one funds youth VB in order for a schollie.....for any sport not just VB as a parent, if college funding is a reason, then just put that $200 a month for club (or whatever it is) for 14 years in a better fund, and you don't need a schollie. of course, explain that to your kid so I personally think the entire 'target a schollie' mentality won't have any affect on shrinking anything. I think distaste with other sports (football and club basketball or baseball) and simply better enjoyment with VB alone (like happened with Soccer) is going to keep growth going. D1 is so structurally screwed up as to I have little hope for much more D1 VB growt at all Sorry, to clarify…not targeting a scholarship but rather targeting real playing opportunities. Even better, athletic access into schools. Not getting money is one thing but it softens the blow if it gets you into a school that you’d want to go to. Just getting into college is insane these days. Sports is an access point. VB has very limited access points with admissions and even fewer w intl players taking more and more spots. All of that said, I acknowledge that all professional opportunities are overseas so perhaps it’s even-steven. I just undercut my own original argument. Need to sleep on it. $200/month…I wish. getting in to college is NOT insane. it's easy, you have to be an idiot to not be able to get in to a college. and most kids are actually probably better off just going to a Juco,....where many can....play VB. sorry now, getting into your #1 choice is a different matter. lots of schools to go play at. getting into your school of choice AND playing D1 MVB. yeah, that can be tough. we paid for dance lessons for 13 years, would have paid for the bulk of a UCLA education if we applied my own 'strategy', instead no dance schollie at UCLA, so I have a $100,000 baseball cap that was the cost of our kid's education there. |
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Post by couchanalyst on Apr 25, 2024 13:34:05 GMT -5
I was at a boys club tournament few years ago after Henno's first year at UCI and Kniffin was watching a kid on our court so I just chatted with him briefly and I can't even remember how it came up but I asked about their team and recruiting/player development and he just flat out said that nowadays recruiting and competition is so tough every year and most programs do not have the luxury of grooming people to perform after several years of practice, so UCI and all other top programs are all chasing for the most plug and play players who can make an immediate impact and often times those players are international. I dont fault international players coming here, but I think more should be done to make more programs competitive and increase overall competition at NCAA so it's not just about haves and have nots.
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Post by gtrich on Apr 25, 2024 14:49:58 GMT -5
This is something that the market will fix on it's own. In the end, this is a conversation the recruit and the head coach need to have before accepting a spot. Also, the roster makeup and the coach's tendencies are something the player should research when they are making their list of the top 20-30 schools they want to go after for recruiting. If a school/coach gets a reputation for bringing in the top US kids and then benching them for the latest international player, US recruits and their club's/high schools will stop looking at those colleges. The same goes for a school that only brings in International kids (there's a D3 that I can't remember off the top of my head that is like 95% international kids from I think Puerto Rico and Latin America). We had one of those reach out to us and after looking at the roster, passed on the school because it was almost all international kids, and only the international kids played.
Lastly, and someone mentioned it above as well, International kids are not preventing US kids from playing volleyball in college. They may be preventing you from playing at a specific college, however, there are hundreds of small NAIA/D3 schools in the US that offer a men's volleyball program. If you are willing to move, or be flexible in your school, there is a team out there that needs you. I've talked to a couple of NAIA schools that have scholarship money, and can't find kids to play at their school because of the location, or the size of the school. If playing volleyball in college is your one and only goal, you can find a school.
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Post by gofaster88 on Apr 25, 2024 15:03:31 GMT -5
The one major thing is that schools give the foreign players scholarships. If the money is coming from a school that takes in money from taxes that seems wrong to me. Neither the foreign player(s) nor their families are not paying taxes, therefore they shouldn't receive scholarships that are federally/state funded. they cannot have NIL deals due to visa status, so one can argue they need the scholarships more than domestic players who are eligible for NIL But besides Hawaii and maybe Long Beach how many teams actually have solid NIL deals for their Men's Volleyball teams? |
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Post by gofaster88 on Apr 25, 2024 15:12:05 GMT -5
Sorry, to clarify…not targeting a scholarship but rather targeting real playing opportunities. Even better, athletic access into schools. Not getting money is one thing but it softens the blow if it gets you into a school that you’d want to go to. Just getting into college is insane these days. Sports is an access point. VB has very limited access points with admissions and even fewer w intl players taking more and more spots. All of that said, I acknowledge that all professional opportunities are overseas so perhaps it’s even-steven. I just undercut my own original argument. Need to sleep on it. $200/month…I wish. getting in to college is NOT insane. it's easy, you have to be an idiot to not be able to get in to a college. and most kids are actually probably better off just going to a Juco,....where many can....play VB. sorry now, getting into your #1 choice is a different matter. lots of schools to go play at. getting into your school of choice AND playing D1 MVB. yeah, that can be tough. we paid for dance lessons for 13 years, would have paid for the bulk of a UCLA education if we applied my own 'strategy', instead no dance schollie at UCLA, so I have a $100,000 baseball cap that was the cost of our kid's education there. As a dance dad, I feel your pain. I tell my Club and HS volleyball parents all the time be glad your kid didn't choose dance. It's way more expensive and yes, they travel too. My daughter's dream is Julliard shes's done all the summer intensives in NYC (SAB, ABT). YIKES! |
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Post by fishnpoi on Apr 25, 2024 20:03:21 GMT -5
sorry, but Big West schools are hanging in by a thread. be careful what you wish for or D1 Volleyball may become D1 Water Polo, Only 4 schools winning NCs, in a fabricated so called 'league' and not much else. it's larger than Volleyball, and if you restrict Long Beach and Hawaii in VB, you drive one more stake in these schools and the possibility they (and other Big West ) schools just give up and join the California CCAA eventually, by the way Big West is ONLY D1 conference sponsoring MVB. the Big West MBB league is being DECIMATED this year with every 1st team player transferring out, adn every top teams rebuilding. Not unique to Big West basketball. BIg West schools didn't create this crap. the big boys did. I'd love to hear Speraw who was giddy about a Big 10 conference, so maybe he does like the water polo model. pointing out LOng Beach and Hawaii is bad in so many ways. St. Mary's is surviving and remaining relevant in MBB for D1 SOLEY by international pipelines. If long time programs like UCI in the BW have to rely on foreign players to stay relevant then there is a much bigger problem. Those schools should have no problem recruiting USA high schoolers and if they do you should be mad at your programs, not at me lol. I wasn’t trying to single out any teams btw, I felt the same way when Ohio State won titles on the backs of Szsersen and Maxime Hervoir. This is a silly argument. "to stay relevant"? You mean relevant in the way that other schools have shut down their programs because their admins consider this sport non-income producing? Why not push for growing the game instead of putting restrictions on those who are basically keeping the game alive. What would potential "olympians" do if volleyball was no longer an NCAA sanctioned sport? |
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Post by ACE on Apr 25, 2024 21:49:53 GMT -5
This is obviously brought on due to the success of both programs. No one was complaining back in the 2011 when Hawaii had Hunt, Umlauf, and Zemljak or 2013/14 when Hawaii had Marks, Timmer, Mckellar, Zarkovic, Mol, Sedore because Hawaii wasn't a contender then.
Hawaii and Long Beach has gotten foreign recruits, but aside from unhuman Alex Nikolov, who came in and dominated the game from the get go? I can't think of anyone. Every one of Hawaii's foreign recruits had to work and train hard to get even into the conversation for all-american status or POY.
Parapunov really didn't make a splash until his junior year. Jakob Thelle was a serving specialist his frosh year and got benched at starter mid season his sophomore year.
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Post by wilbur on Apr 26, 2024 0:08:13 GMT -5
This is obviously brought on due to the success of both programs. No one was complaining back in the 2011 when Hawaii had Hunt, Umlauf, and Zemljak or 2013/14 when Hawaii had Marks, Timmer, Mckellar, Zarkovic, Mol, Sedore because Hawaii wasn't a contender then. Hawaii and Long Beach has gotten foreign recruits, but aside from unhuman Alex Nikolov, who came in and dominated the game from the get go? I can't think of anyone. Every one of Hawaii's foreign recruits had to work and train hard to get even into the conversation for all-american status or POY. Parapunov really didn't make a splash until his junior year. Jakob Thelle was a serving specialist his frosh year and got benched at starter mid season his sophomore year. Szsersen and SVT were both plug and play among many others in the past. The foreign players raise the level and are a... GOOD THING... unless you are either a fan of one of the schools that hasn't figured out how to recruit quality foreign players... or a bench player or hopeful recruit being turned down by one of the schools that has... or one of those players parents. This is the new reality and the level of the top team is this now, if there are domestic players not up to that level, there are lots of other teams as mentioned on the thread. There is not one player I can think of in the current national team program that has been or would have been disadvantaged by having more foreign players to compete against in college. The kids getting pushed down are not that caliber of player. |
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