Moore taking Mclaughlin Approach?

[Wolfgang]

I have no problems with foreigners on college teams if the colleges themselves have no problems accepting foreign students (and their $$$) into their academic programs.

However, I have problems with thugs in the college game which, thankfully, is not a problem within volleyball. Most thugs are in basketball, football, and lacrosse.

Thank you for your time, in advance.

[pnwvb]

I am not expert but I was part of my country's national team and played and coached as like my husband on professional teams mostly in Balkans and central Europe. I have many friends who are coaches, agents, and presidents of clubs in these areas so I am certain that all most all players from Serbia and Turkey, and Bulgaria are professionals because they are very few university with teams.

I know that coaches from Tennessee spend many time in Bulgaria watching club teams. I think this is why NCAA and some people on this board do not that because university in europe do not have teams there are only club teams. Most of these teams have first division teams wher players have agents and are under contract like the serbian players in USA who have played for Redstar, Posstar or Jedinstvo, these are professional teams. It is true as one person said that they do not make as much as leagues in Italy or Turkey, but they are paid more than normal living expenses such as is against the rules which ncaa tells us.

I am sure Murina or Sisam can add more as they are more involved now with international game.

But I am sure that American college coaches know that they are not recruting from top players on national team, because the good one are playing also professionally in other countries. So they look at second division or lower leagues like Serbian A1 to find players for there team.

[foreignball]

pnwvb said:

1.I have many friends who are coaches, agents, and presidents of clubs in these areas so I am certain that all most all players from Serbia and Turkey, and Bulgaria are professionals because they are very few university with teams.

2. I know that coaches from Tennessee spend many time in Bulgaria watching club teams. I think this is why NCAA and some people on this board do not that because university in europe do not have teams there are only club teams.

3.Most of these teams have first division teams where players have agents and are under contract like the serbian players in USA who have played for Redstar, Posstar or Jedinstvo, these are professional teams.

4 But I am sure that American college coaches know that they are not recruiting from top players on national team, because the good one are playing also professionally in other countries.

In general this is a very interesting post – full of correct info and absolutely incorrect conclusions. I do not know why is that but either the poster has been misled by herself or she is trying to mislead some other people let alone the fact there is some controversy here.
I’ll try to clarify some of her statements but first I would like to share what is my definition of a “pro player” (as it’s been discussed numerous times on this board even NCAA don’t have a clear set of rules regarding that matter): according to me any player who has signed a valid contract with a pro team should be considered as a pro. I am not sold on this “reasonable expenses” thing because as we know the standard of life is quite different in different countries so an income that may look miserable in some countries could be a fortune in some others. Example: in some of the above mentioned Balkan countries the average monthly income is in the range of $250 (converted to US currency). If a player signs a contract for $400 she will be well above the average for the country but you tell me in which income group she will fall here in the US. I believe the fact that somebody has declared she is employed by some kind of business organization and she is making her living by working full time for her employer is the one that makes the difference.

1.That’s right – university leagues are practically non-existing in the moment due to the lack of finances (even though 20+ years ago they were quite strong and there were even international college competitions). This fact however doesn’t make anybody a pro player. FYI back then some even some pro players were participating in these leagues - those who were taking classes at some colleges were required (by the school) to play for their college teams during the national college league finals. So if we apply the rule for playing/practicing with/against pro players it will turned out all players were not eligible to play in the US. In our case your statement holds true only if we have in mind players, say 2,3 and more years older than the common age of HS graduate. I in person have posted many times here, at VT that any time I see 20+ yo FR I am almost sure she must have played pro ball somewhere. For all others that are 18 or 19 yo I strongly disagree because these girls come from JR VBC and they haven’t necessarily played for their respective pro teams, they just haven’t turn the age to become college students/players.

2.This is true and what? His time his dime – as long as he believes this is the best way to strengthen his team. I do not know why you missed to inform the public that the clubs that he is watching over there are JUNIOR ones (R Patrick is a subscriber for the JO finals in BUL ). You are also trying to say that Y Stoyanova is a pro (since she is his only recruit from BUL so far ) and this is not true. Her story is: she used to play for a JRVBC that didn’t have 18’s team (one of the few over there that were not connected to a pro team). So she had 2 options – either to go to a bigger club but they wanted to sign a pro contract (the club name was CSKA) or to a smaller one that didn’t have such a requirement (Academica VBC in Sofia). She wanted to come and play here so she chose the 2nd.

3. I’m sure there is some truth in this one but you’re generalizing again. It is just like in the court of law – until the defendant hasn’t been proven guilty he/she gets benefit of a doubt. I know there are some “special cases (the POL players at USC) but as long as the authority in charge (NCAA) hasn’t taken any actions they are free to play. If you want to make a point you have to provide relevant info – names, clubs, etc.

4. True again but the actual reason is: if a player has a pro contract at that early age it means she is very valuable so the club won’t let her go just like that. A few years ago, some NCAA coaches heavily recruited two of the current BUL NT members. However they did have signed contracts at that time so their club administration faxed copies of their contracts to the NCAA Clearinghouse and that was it. Basically at the age of 18 all players from the countries in question have to make an alternative choice – either to turn pro or to try their chance here. Some pick up the 1st one, some others – the 2nd and again to say that all JR players over there are pro’s is way exaggerated. On the other hand even though the coaches are aware that the players that are available may not be the best ones if they are better compared to the ones that they can get here it is still a good deal for them. The US JNT and YNT members are a very small number compared to the number of schools in Div1 plus they tend to go only to a certain programs, so for all others foreigners are the only option that coaches have (if they want to get some boost right away).

#4 is an interesting one. Actually it says: US coaches do not recruit pro players ......because they are already in different countries Whether the recruits are good or not - I think we should let coaches decide. I in person do not believe they (coaches) waste their time and money travelling all over the world just to get a so-so player. As a coach shared with me some time ago (while we were discussing a foreign player): "She is OK but she is as good as some kids that I have next door. I offer scholarships to foreign girls only when they are better than the ones that I can get locally".

[sIsam]

pnwvb said:

I am not expert but I was part of my country's national team and played and coached as like my husband on professional teams mostly in Balkans and central Europe. I have many friends who are coaches, agents, and presidents of clubs in these areas so I am certain that all most all players from Serbia and Turkey, and Bulgaria are professionals because they are very few university with teams....

I am VERY familiar with the system in Turkey and I expect it is the same for most of Europe. The way it works is that most club teams compete in more than one - three or four is the norm - categories. Playing for X team does not make a player a pro by default since the player could be playing for pre-youth, youth or juniors. Part of the reason big clubs are 'big' here in Turkey is because of the strength of their junior program. None of the kids there are professionals, nor do they get paid, and nor do they train as much as many here tend to think so.

Players in 16-19 age group would be ineligible for the NCAA not because they are pros themselves but because if they play on D1 team of their club, it is very likely that they play with professional players. Per rules, players can not transfer freely until the age of 20-21 and clubs do not have to contract players (they can if they want to) until they are 18. You would be surprised how many players play with minimal compensation even in Division Is.

When you look at junior programs of the clubs, unless there are extreme circumstances or major exceptions, it is very unlikely for the top players to consider NCAAs to begin with. Clubs would be willing to provide whatever necessary to keep the player there. As foreignball stated in his post, rest of the kids get a choice between playing on an average team in the league with average pay (and try to go to college at te same time) or if their background allows it to come to the US to get and education and play volleyball. Some opt for one and some for the other...

I can't talk about other nations but I can say here without any doubt whatsoever that none of the Turks who I know of who play in NCAA D1 right now are pro players even in NCAA standards. And they are products of some of the best known club teams in Turkey....

[saywho]

You sound like my mom when she tells me to buy an American car instead of a German or Japanese one. Good lawd. So, true, all coaches have the option to go this route. If they don't -- it's their fault. Just like if I buy that Ford, it's not gonna be worth jack in a few years.

reiker21 said:

Thetruth

I have been involved in volleyball for many years. I have three daughters who played at some of the top D-1 programs in the country. Just because I have an opinion that is not yours does not make it "retarded". I do see a trend beginning to happen and it does appear to be a quick fix for many program. My only concern is that this will slowly become the way that coaches deal with a failing program. I do NOT think Oregon would be where they are this year without the recruiting of their foreign players. Just because you have connections to recruit foreign players does not make you a "good coach". Most programs have the ability to go that route if they chose to. They choose to develop the players they have.

[Charlie]

Hey, I played for a junior club in Istanbul when I was a teenager living there. Does that make me a pro? Ouch, guess we'll have to void that undefeated season I had my last year at UCLA because I played for a club before that. But, the two sports I played for the club were different than the two sports I played for UCLA. Am I still a pro?

I think part of the problem with this issue is that Americans don't really understand the "club" systems that exist virtually everywhere else. And I'm not going to try to explain it here, because I don't think I could do justice to the topic. I think it would take an 80-page Masters Thesis for this topic.

I think things are getting better for keeping real "pros" out of college sports. Well, pros from other countries, anyway. When a kid here is on scholarship, they're getting paid anywhere from $20K to $40K a year to play a sport. But, that's not professional . . . or is it?

[BearClause]

charlie said:

Hey, I played for a junior club in Istanbul when I was a teenager living there. Does that make me a pro? Ouch, guess we'll have to void that undefeated season I had my last year at UCLA because I played for a club before that. But, the two sports I played for the club were different than the two sports I played for UCLA. Am I still a pro?

Actually - no. The NCAA "amateurism" rules are applied per the individual sport. A former minor league baseball player like Chris Weinke was allowed to enter Florida State as a football player.

I think part of the problem with this issue is that Americans don't really understand the "club" systems that exist virtually everywhere else. And I'm not going to try to explain it here, because I don't think I could do justice to the topic. I think it would take an 80-page Masters Thesis for this topic.

The NCAA rules on "amateurism" are so out of tune with the way so-called club competition works around the world. I think there was a time where unpaid players from semi-pro teams were perfectly NCAA eligible. I'm not sure what changed that, although some have mentioned the possibility of under-the-table payments. I think it's pretty stupid anyways where the NCAA draws the line. One "club team" might meet the NCAA's definition of "professional" one year, while it may not be the next. The only real difference may be the team's finances. Not to mention "allowable expenses" and how that's accounted (or not) for.