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Post by bunnywailer on Aug 12, 2008 21:09:32 GMT -5
So... because I didn't see a stat line for Sanja... and thought (logically) that it was perhaps only due to her not playing... this makes me "stupid" and ignorant of all things volleyball related? Yes. Actually, I take that back. It's more the cumulative effect of the stupidity of your posts in general, coupled by the fact that you continue to argue with a group of people who, collectively, are much more volleyball smart than you.
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Post by Murina on Aug 12, 2008 21:34:09 GMT -5
My gawd, this thread is hilarious!
First: in the USA match Cuba played at a level they typically can't play. Not only that, they were able to sustain it for 3 sets which is unheard of by this group of Cubans. The reversal of the line call in the second set was key as if Cuba loses that set, history says that the rest of the match would likely have looked much different.
Tomasovic is technically on the Serbian NT but she's probably not in the top 10 wing spikers on their depth chart. She gets to go to tournaments when lots of other options are unavailable. Kaczor is significantly farther along and the fact that she made the Polish Olympic team is significant because Bonitta left behind some pretty good and healthy players.
Part of the problem in the USA is that so few volleyball players/fans have ever been exposed to good volleyball. Another is that so few American volleyball fans/players are exposed to properly evaluating, and training for high level play in the sport. It explains so many of the absurd statements in this thread...
Quantity does not always equal quality. The high school, club and college system in the USA retards the progress of the top players. All 3 are geared toward having lots of players participate and win some stupid championship as opposed to developing the top athletes.
If I could have a penny for every time I've read on this board that NCAA, USAV and high schools shouldn't do certain things because "99% of the players will never play for the national team" I'd own my own island! Yet now all I read on this board is viciousness when that 1% are not prepared to compete with teams and players who are!
You can age group your players and shelter them from playing against good players until they are 22 years old, but you are seeing the results of that now.
- USAV age divisions in 1 year increments
- USAV championships in 3 different levels per age division encouraging clubs to keep good players down so the team can win an "national championship" in 16 American, instead of moving the top players up the the 18's team where they are challenged, but may finish 5th in their region.
- The best high school age kids can't practice with their local college teams where they will be pushed and get a lot better because you want the recruiting playing field to be "fair."
- You all whine about how unfair it is that your college girls have to play against "Grandmasovic," Kaczor and Louisville et al., and the NCAA has legislation to keep good foreign players out because they have played WITH professionals.
The ages of 15-22 are critical in the development of world class volleyball players but the USA system is intent on making sure the good players don't get to far ahead of the rest.
I've said it many times, but I'll say it again: This is a system problem, not a problem with the USA having bad coaches. There are bad coaches in the USA but there are some very good technical coaches in the USA (this is the same in every country), but even the very good coaches can't overcome the overall goal of the system or the sheltering that the system forces on them.
Even if the people in charge of developing the world class women volleyball players know exactly what needs to be done (and I don't know if they do or don't) they must work against a tremendous amount of resistance due to the inertia of the system. They may know what needs to be changed, but are not able to make the changes necessary for reasons beyond their control. I'm talking about the administrators in charge of creating the framework that the coaches work within - not the coaches themselves.
Laura Davis is better than she showed in the Cuba match. Even so, she is what you will get if you try to keep players in CoS training for multiple years. She was insulated in CoS for much of the last several years while the other athletes spent that time competing in meaningful matches against servers like DeCarne, Francia and Grun just to name a few you won't see in Beijing.
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Post by bunnywailer on Aug 12, 2008 21:44:30 GMT -5
I agree with everything Murina said, but I would add that the USA does not have bad coaches, they have selfish coaches.
When faced with the choice between athlete development and winning, 98% of coaches at the club, high school, and NCAA levels will pick winning.
That produces a system where athletes specialize at too young an age, and progress to the next level with incomplete skill sets. With the addition of the libero, it makes it even worse, because now you have middles who think playing three rotations only is the norm, and who can't pass, set, or play defense. Likewise you have have left side hitters who suck on the right, and rightside hitters who suck on the left. Setters who spend their entire careers only setting and have nothing for an armswing.
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Post by johnnyvideo on Aug 12, 2008 22:22:20 GMT -5
So... because I didn't see a stat line for Sanja... and thought (logically) that it was perhaps only due to her not playing... this makes me "stupid" and ignorant of all things volleyball related? Yes. Actually, I take that back. It's more the cumulative effect of the stupidity of your posts in general, coupled by the fact that you continue to argue with a group of people who, collectively, are much more volleyball smart than you. Actually, Einstein, I'm pretty sure I stopped arguing A-BOUT a page or two back. But if you feel prettier imagining otherwise, you go right ahead. The adults however, have moved on.
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Post by bunnywailer on Aug 12, 2008 22:32:08 GMT -5
I'd feel prettier if you would buy me a pony.
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Post by johnnyvideo on Aug 12, 2008 22:39:34 GMT -5
I agree with everything Murina said, but I would add that the USA does not have bad coaches, they have selfish coaches.When faced with the choice between athlete development and winning, 98% of coaches at the club, high school, and NCAA levels will pick winning.That produces a system where athletes specialize at too young an age, and progress to the next level with incomplete skill sets. With the addition of the libero, it makes it even worse, because now you have middles who think playing three rotations only is the norm, and who can't pass, set, or play defense. Likewise you have have left side hitters who suck on the right, and rightside hitters who suck on the left. Setters who spend their entire careers only setting and have nothing for an armswing. This, I agree entirely with. Murina also put it very eloquently. I remember the first time I went and watched one of the better high schools in the area. And a certain MB stood out very much on that team. And I remember watching her get removed for a defensive specialist after she served. And I recall asking another coach, "Why would he pull her out? I understand that she is not good in the back row yet, but doesn't it make sense to use the high school level to DEVELOP that talent in someone who has so much superior potential otherwise?" And the answer I got was "No. Coach so-and-so wants to win. And so do the parents." I guess (and pardon my stupidity and ignorance and idiocy) I never realized that this trend continued throughout the entire career of a player. I guess I believed (hoped) that at some point development became more important. Or maybe I thought, "Well, the coaches probably know what they are doing. Maybe development stops at Middle School, and "specialty roles" begin in High School." Either way, it's a shame. But I don't know what the right answer is either. If you develop an OH or MB in the back row, I'm sure it comes at the expense of someone who COULD benefit from the Libero postion as well. It's just odd that we don't see this kind of 'setback' in football too. Players typically play both offense and defense in High School still. However... gearing this back to the Olympics, still, whether it is an inconenient truth or not, it still seems to me that we could field 12 players with better fundamentals than what I've seen. And I'm not talking strictly about being outclassed by Cuba, anomolie or not. I'm even talking about Japan. Our girls did not work as a collective unit when blocking at the net, they still had trouble digging and passing, as I said before the setting was predictable and unimaginative, etc. The fundamentals simply were not present. Every sport comes down to the employment of fundamentals, and that is what I have yet to see in full force.
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Post by bunnywailer on Aug 12, 2008 22:41:04 GMT -5
Do you even understand what volleyball fundamentals are?
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Post by johnnyvideo on Aug 12, 2008 22:49:28 GMT -5
Do you even understand what volleyball fundamentals are? Okay, yeah... you're making me really sorry that I actually agreed with anything you've said. You're extremely rude. I passed by a rock this afternoon with a hole under it and an address written on it... I'm sure you're non-stupid enough to fill in the rest. I'm here to talk volleyball, dude. If you wanna attack me as a person, I'm sure there's a kindergarten nearby with all sorts of other kinder who will be happy to play with you. In the meantime, save your babyish remarks for someone else.
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Post by bunnywailer on Aug 12, 2008 23:01:43 GMT -5
Uhh....that was a legit volleyball question I asked. Simply asked because you, like other people here, throw that term around but have no idea what it really means.
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Post by PukaPants on Aug 12, 2008 23:22:35 GMT -5
johnnyboy, Murina said it all and quite eloquently, you need not add more of your verbal diarrhea and polute the quality of his post.
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Post by bunnywailer on Aug 12, 2008 23:25:22 GMT -5
Verbal diarrhea. That is an instant VT classic!
;D
I bow to you, Pukapants, that even tops some of my best putdowns here on VT, and believe me (and Ruffda and Gorf), I've had alot over the years.
U da man.
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Post by OverAndUnder on Aug 12, 2008 23:34:01 GMT -5
We can turn this argument upside down and look at the success of say Cuba, Brazil, China and Russia. All of these teams have long time veterans of Olympic/Professional level and very few newbies on their teams. The talented newbie theory doing better than veterans should be put to rest. Again, the players mentioned above who did not make the US team didn't deserve to be there. No, we can't make this comparison at all. Because the Cuban, Brasilian, etc. players are true veterans or are on the verge of becoming veterans at age 24. With rare exception, our players are still untested little girls at that age.
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Post by VBCOACH on Aug 13, 2008 2:03:57 GMT -5
Part of the problem in the USA is that so few volleyball players/fans have ever been exposed to good volleyball. You are so right. When I saw my first Olympics in Los Angeles in 1984, I had been playing/coaching for almost 10 years. I had seen many Mens and Womens National Team tours (yes, they used to do that) and thought that I had seen some really good volleyball. What I saw at the Olympics was so many mega times better than anything else that I had ever seen, it ruined my ability to enjoy watching volleyball for two years. It just looked so slow and basic and un-athletic.
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Post by rogero1 on Aug 13, 2008 3:14:39 GMT -5
Anyone think if we went to using FIVB rules that our women would become better all around players like our men are forced to be? The NCAA mens coaches looked beyond the collegiate game to the international game as the final destination for their players.
Why do we not have women that can pass at the international level? Because our collegiate programs had the libero or a DS pass for them. I seem to recall seeing nearly every current USA OH at one point or another during their careers having someone else come in to pass for them.
How many 5 skill players are there in the current collegiate ranks? Not very many. We need to develop more of them.
I hope JLP stays around for 2012 as she does know what it takes to win a gold medal. A right mix of some current collegians with int'l experience and some veterans to show the way will go far and medal. Just my humble opinion.
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Post by johnnyvideo on Aug 13, 2008 5:17:44 GMT -5
johnnyboy, Murina said it all and quite eloquently, you need not add more of your verbal diarrhea and polute the quality of his post. You're an extremely rude individual as well. How old are you? Three? I agreed with everything Murina said. In fact, I used the same exact word- "eloquently". Pay attention please.
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