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Post by redbeard2008 on Jan 15, 2012 16:28:08 GMT -5
PSU did establish a policy barring discrimination based on sexual orientation. Portland simply ignored it, continuing to discriminate, for years, while being protected by the athletic and university administrations. Just having a policy isn't enough - it needs to be enforced. It wasn't at PSU.
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Post by The Bofa on the Sofa on Jan 15, 2012 16:40:12 GMT -5
PSU did establish a policy barring discrimination based on sexual orientation. Portland simply ignored it, continuing to discriminate, for years, while being protected by the athletic and university administrations. Just having a policy isn't enough - it needs to be enforced. It wasn't at PSU. Oh absolutely. Portland was clearly in violation of university policy. But I was more addressing the question of why anyone would want to go play for her knowing that she is like that. Mainly, because they have the right to expect her to not be like that. If they make that part of their decision, then she has succeeded in her discrimination against them.
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Post by volleytology on Jan 15, 2012 16:53:25 GMT -5
"why anyone would want to go play for her knowing that she is like that. "
Heterosexual girls ?
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Post by redbeard2008 on Jan 15, 2012 17:35:27 GMT -5
PSU did establish a policy barring discrimination based on sexual orientation. Portland simply ignored it, continuing to discriminate, for years, while being protected by the athletic and university administrations. Just having a policy isn't enough - it needs to be enforced. It wasn't at PSU. Oh absolutely. Portland was clearly in violation of university policy. But I was more addressing the question of why anyone would want to go play for her knowing that she is like that. Mainly, because they have the right to expect her to not be like that. If they make that part of their decision, then she has succeeded in her discrimination against them. Agree. My sense is that the anti-lesbian pitch was aimed at the parents, more than the recruits. This was not "news" until the Harris complaint/suit went public. I doubt most recruits had any inkling about the environment they were stepping into. While the film doesn't make it clear, I read elsewhere that Harris was actually not a lesbian. Portland apparently suspected she was a lesbian simply because she wore corn rows.
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Post by The Bofa on the Sofa on Jan 15, 2012 17:48:23 GMT -5
Aren't stereotypes wonderful?
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Post by bigfan on Jan 15, 2012 18:33:02 GMT -5
Kind of hard to ignore the issue of sexuality in Woman's sports. I've had people tell me they would never let their daughters play volleyball because of spandex and others - men- say they sometimes feel uncomfortable at tourneys. This entire post is spot on.
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Post by volleytology on Jan 15, 2012 18:59:06 GMT -5
Same-sex lockerroom issues has been a big problem in women's hoops. Takes team chemistry problems to another level !
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Post by austintatious on Jan 16, 2012 0:11:38 GMT -5
While I may not personally go so far as to say Paterno "protected" Sandusky, he sure didn't do all he could, or in the minds of most clear thinking people, should have done to make sure Sandusky's actions were investigated by the PROPER authorities, as opposed to the PSU good old boys network. Paterno wasn't a witness to Sandusky's sexual abuse crimes. How could he have made a statement to the police? Paterno reported McQueary's story to his superiors and set up a meeting between the AD and VP of Business and Finance, who had direct executive oversight of the Penn State Police Department. It was at that point that things fell apart. It had nothing to do with Paterno. drink that Kool-Aid.
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Post by VolleyTX on Jan 16, 2012 13:03:12 GMT -5
Wait.... wait... wait..... Once Paterno told his leaders, he was absolved of responsibility? One of his subordinates was being accused of raping a child, IN THE LOCKER ROOM, and all Paterno needed to do was tell his superiors? That is a pretty low moral bar you've set for any individual... let alone someone who runs a multi-million dollar team.
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Post by VolleyTX on Jan 16, 2012 13:09:03 GMT -5
It does seem to me that certain schools (or communities) tend to be a bit more religious. i.e. team prays before games, etc. I can see how openly gay players would try to avoid those programs. There may be no open discrimination, but it would be hard to feel like part of a team when in the back of your head you know that many of your teammates think your sexuality is wrong.
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Post by OptimusPrime on Jan 16, 2012 13:19:58 GMT -5
I once had a gay coach tell me " oh, I don't want one of those on my team" ! Referring to an openly gay OH/MB recruit!!!!! Then I had several parents tell me during a recruiting process... paraphrasing here... don't mind my daughter playing for a male gay coach but don't want her playing for a female gay coach!!! A player was being recruited to play volleyball for one of the armed forces. The main dilemma/question was; how many gay players are on the team? don't want daughter rooming with them. Then there are coaches that pretend to be dating the opposite sex just to please some of the parents on the team. It is a giant web of deception all the way around...
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Post by The Bofa on the Sofa on Jan 16, 2012 13:28:13 GMT -5
It does seem to me that certain schools (or communities) tend to be a bit more religious. i.e. team prays before games, etc. I can see how openly gay players would try to avoid those programs. There may be no open discrimination, but it would be hard to feel like part of a team when in the back of your head you know that many of your teammates think your sexuality is wrong. And, should it come to it, that school could be liable for discrimination. The group who says "I didn't even apply because I felt I would be unwelcome" is absolutely included in discrimination settlements, because the courts realize that unless they do that, then discriminators will be successful in excluding, by not getting them to apply in the first place. Now, if the places you are talking about do not have non-discrimination policies that prevent such things (religious schools may not; Baylor, for example, does not include sexual orientation among its civil rights protections), then the discrimination is allowed and the player cannot count on being free from it. In contrast, here is the statement from the UNI website regarding employment: "UNI is committed to equality of all persons, regardless of age, color, creed, disability, gender identity, national origin, race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, veteran status, or any other defining characteristic." A coach at UNI who creates an atmosphere hostile toward homosexual players, to the point where they don't apply, is obviously violating university policy.
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Post by VolleyTX on Jan 16, 2012 13:42:07 GMT -5
Ok.... I wasn't referring to actual, verifiable discrimination. As an example, I'm gay. I've had a couple co-workers who are very religious. They have been nothing but nice to me. I could never be as comfortable around them as I was my more "liberal" minded co-workers. It is hard to not get out of the back of your mind that your coworker thinks you are going to hell. Know what I mean?
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Post by jcvball22 on Jan 16, 2012 14:17:03 GMT -5
As someone who had the great good fortune (please read with the insertion of EXTREME sarcasm) of playing 6 years of AAU basketball with the young woman this documentary centers around, I can tell you from personal experience, Coach Portland's reason of her lazy, selfish behavior in her dismissal certainly would be justifiable. She was an absolute nightmare to play with, as her "me first" attitude was a massive chemistry killer. She was a ridiculously gifted athlete and basketball player. But she continually flaunted her anti-authority attitude and took pride in never listening to her coaches. I didn't realize just how big of a distraction and detriment she really was to our team until I played on a team without that type of personality. Unfortunately, the culture of "I am bigger than the team" is incredibly prevalent in basketball, and what actually turned me off of the sport, leading to my choice to play volleyball in college at a Division III institution, instead of taking any of the Division I basketball offers I had.
What the documentary fails to cover, is that, regardless of sexual orientation, Coach Portland was very tough on all of her players (I had other teammates that also played there, some gay, some straight, and all of which say she was tough, but fair, and did not appreciate selfish players). If you didn't get in line with what she wanted of you, you didn't last. That is the coach's prerogative, and has nothing to do with sexual orientation. The documentary makers seemed to have picked and chosen their interviews to suit their thesis, instead of showing both sides. So while the documentary is interesting if you don't know much of the background of the program or the athletes and certainly touches on a subject that should be addressed, it misses on some pretty major parts of the situation.
Now, I am in no way, shape or form condoning discrimination AT ALL in any of it's manifestations. In fact, I find it loathsome that people still act in openly discriminatory manners. But it is also becoming prevalent that people who are unhappy with their situation use discrimination as a crutch to get what they want, because it is often a gray area with a lot of room for interpretation and perception to play a major role, based often on a feeling. It is a very fine line to walk.
It is incredibly hard to ignore the issue of sexuality in Women's Sports, as it is part of everyday life, open to constant speculation. In Men's Sport, it's almost a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" culture, which can be just as oppressive. We seem to be, as a society, making progress, albeit slow, on this issue and the stigmas attached to it. Hopefully, the progress continues forward, just as discrimination based on race, ethnicity, disability, etc have moved forward. Not to say discrimination will every be complete obliterated (as much as we would all like to believe it will be), but there is definite room for improvement.
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Post by NotKingOfAnything on Jan 16, 2012 14:18:25 GMT -5
It does seem to me that certain schools (or communities) tend to be a bit more religious. i.e. team prays before games, etc. I can see how openly gay players would try to avoid those programs. There may be no open discrimination, but it would be hard to feel like part of a team when in the back of your head you know that many of your teammates think your sexuality is wrong. Just because someone is Christian and/or prays before games, etc. doesn't mean that they are discriminatory against persons with different sexual preferences. I'm Christian, go to church most Sundays, and could care less if someone is gay. Of the guys from church that I know well enough to know, they don't care either. Yet I know plenty of "non-Church-going-Christians" that would discriminate. Ok.... I wasn't referring to actual, verifiable discrimination. As an example, I'm gay. I've had a couple co-workers who are very religious. They have been nothing but nice to me. I could never be as comfortable around them as I was my more "liberal" minded co-workers. It is hard to not get out of the back of your mind that your coworker thinks you are going to hell. Know what I mean? That's what I'm saying. I'm Christian, and as a Christian, I am taught to accept people for who they are. I'm taught that God loves me no matter what my short comings and misgivings are. We (our church) had a very talented young (gay) man who was a featured singer in the choir, did a lot of special music at services, etc. He was active in the youth ministry and everyone loved him for who he was. He asked the church board to affix a symbol to the big sign at the entrance that signified that GLBT are welcome at the church. The board decided against the symbol, stating that "all are welcome at God's table", not just GLBT, not just a certain race, nor a certain income level. ALL are welcome. Unfortunately the young man did leave the congregation. [edit] - I'm removing this... I'm not sure what to thing, but I don't object! So I object to your statement, VolleyTX.
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