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Post by redbeard2008 on Jan 14, 2012 14:08:38 GMT -5
Yeah, they learned they had to recruit for diversity or be subjected to federal lawsuits. Diversity is fine if institutions want to pursue it for whatever reason, but I'll never accept the absurd notion that diversity is its own reward. No, it's not that, per se. What it is is that if you arbitrarily restrict yourself from a certain percentage of the talent pool, you hurt your company's chances to recruit the best talent. Tolerance is good business practice. That's why many of the big companies put "domestic partnership" benefits into practice long before any states did. If anything they are a head of the laws, not following them only because they are forced to. I think that the Japanese economy suffered tremendously from excluding women largely from long-term professional careers. Men working harder and longer could only partially compensate for the resulting talent deficit.
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Post by jsn112 on Jan 14, 2012 14:09:53 GMT -5
I don't sense that at all from him. He's just asking what does this have to do with volleyball? Calling someone a "DIRTY OLD MAN" getting his jollies from this sort of thing...................on a women's volleyball thread does not bring to mind love and peace. No, I wouldn't say that. I am not trying to defend him, but I think the "dirty old man" part is more like an overused cliche reference to a guy's fantasy of two lesbians going at it.
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Post by redbeard2008 on Jan 14, 2012 14:52:23 GMT -5
Calling someone a "DIRTY OLD MAN" getting his jollies from this sort of thing...................on a women's volleyball thread does not bring to mind love and peace. No, I wouldn't say that. I am not trying to defend him, but I think the "dirty old man" part is more like an overused cliche reference to a guy's fantasy of two lesbians going at it. Or a fantasy of a fantasy... I would hope that anyone viewing this film would feel sympathy for the victims of this abuse and anger at the purveyors and enablers of it. The character "Redbeard" in Kurosawa's film is a hater of injustice and cruelty. What I've posted here is entirely consistent with past posts I've made favoring protections for recruits and athletes from abuse by coaches. They were victimized for what they were or suspected of being, or their mere association with such persons, not for anything they were doing, or not doing, in private or public. There is really nothing to fantasize about in the film.
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Post by jsn112 on Jan 14, 2012 15:06:13 GMT -5
No, I wouldn't say that. I am not trying to defend him, but I think the "dirty old man" part is more like an overused cliche reference to a guy's fantasy of two lesbians going at it. Or a fantasy of a fantasy... I would hope that anyone viewing this film would feel sympathy for the victims of this abuse and anger at the purveyors and enablers of it. The character "Redbeard" in Kurosawa's film is a hater of injustice and cruelty. What I've posted here is entirely consistent with past posts I've made favoring protections for recruits and athletes from abuse by coaches. They were victimized for what they were or suspected of being, or their mere association with such persons, not for anything they were doing, or not doing, in private or public. There is really nothing to fantasize about in the film. Movies I like to watch are action flick, martial arts, sometimes horror, and sometimes comedy. Others such as "Precious?" Not so much.
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Post by redbeard2008 on Jan 14, 2012 15:20:59 GMT -5
Movies I like to watch are action flick, martial arts, sometimes horror, and sometimes comedy. Others such as "Precious?" Not so much. I don't see much of a connection between Training Rules and Precious, which I haven't seen (just going on its description at IMDB). I was initially skeptical that I'd find Training Rules interesting - with Netflix on the Roku, however, I end up checking out a lot of films I might not have watched if I had to get it sent on a DVD, since I'm not losing anything if I bail out on them because they don't sustain my interest. Training Rules did sustain (and spark) my interest. Try stepping outside your box - you might actually find you like stuff you had no idea you would.
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Post by jsn112 on Jan 14, 2012 17:29:54 GMT -5
Movies I like to watch are action flick, martial arts, sometimes horror, and sometimes comedy. Others such as "Precious?" Not so much. I don't see much of a connection between Training Rules and Precious, which I haven't seen (just going on its description at IMDB). I was initially skeptical that I'd find Training Rules interesting - with Netflix on the Roku, however, I end up checking out a lot of films I might not have watched if I had to get it sent on a DVD, since I'm not losing anything if I bail out on them because they don't sustain my interest. Training Rules did sustain (and spark) my interest. Try stepping outside your box - you might actually find you like stuff you had no idea you would. If you like that movie, you'll like the "Hobbit." It's coming out around Christmas. Ever seen the Lord of the Rings? Well, it's a prequel to it. Recommend checking it out. I heard it's good. Thought I pass it along.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jan 14, 2012 17:32:15 GMT -5
Now the knives really come out. Gay or straight is nothing compared to the divide between the people who use the word "film" and the people who hate it when folks use the word "film."
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Post by blastingsand on Jan 15, 2012 1:59:13 GMT -5
It's an intense topic for sure. Happens in tennis too, with so many great players being lesbian or suspected of being lesbian. I also encourage people in this board to join the facebook group "Rainbow Flags Over Margaret Court Arena" ( www.facebook.com/RainbowsOverMCA) It's a peaceful protest against a court (and the player) named after the legend Margaret Court who has stated offensive comments against gays and lesbians recently.
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Post by wonderwarthog79 on Jan 15, 2012 3:14:49 GMT -5
To take some of the stigma out of this discussion, there are players who drink in season, and there are programs, even schools, that forbid it. Their policy to prevent the a kid from doing 21 tequila shots has made a criminal of the kid who has a beer with his pizza after the game. The disruption that player causes to the program is only a disruption because of the policy set forth by the coach or school... so on the topic you've brought up, there are lesbien athletes across the country where it is simply not an issue because they respect their teammates and their teammates respect them and the coach/school doesn't care. In a less accepting environment like the one you describe at Portland State, being gay, regardless of how open you may be about it, is a disruption in and of itself because of school or program policies/rules. Now, why a gay player would go to an environment like that is beyond me. I'm surprised it would be an issue after the first couple of seasons. Someone else may have already said something like this, but I don't plan to read the whole thread. Substitute the word "Afro-American" for "gay" and see if you feel the same way.
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Post by harryhotspur on Jan 15, 2012 10:29:11 GMT -5
What are little girls made of? "Sugar and spice and all things nice That's what little girls are made of!"
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Post by vbnerd on Jan 15, 2012 11:00:26 GMT -5
To take some of the stigma out of this discussion, there are players who drink in season, and there are programs, even schools, that forbid it. Their policy to prevent the a kid from doing 21 tequila shots has made a criminal of the kid who has a beer with his pizza after the game. The disruption that player causes to the program is only a disruption because of the policy set forth by the coach or school... so on the topic you've brought up, there are lesbien athletes across the country where it is simply not an issue because they respect their teammates and their teammates respect them and the coach/school doesn't care. In a less accepting environment like the one you describe at Portland State, being gay, regardless of how open you may be about it, is a disruption in and of itself because of school or program policies/rules. Now, why a gay player would go to an environment like that is beyond me. I'm surprised it would be an issue after the first couple of seasons. Someone else may have already said something like this, but I don't plan to read the whole thread. Substitute the word "Afro-American" for "gay" and see if you feel the same way. Well, Adolph Rupp never accidently recruited an african american player, so I'm not sure what you are getting at.
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Post by siddhartha on Jan 15, 2012 11:16:07 GMT -5
Kind of hard to ignore the issue of sexuality in Woman's sports. I've had people tell me they would never let their daughters play volleyball because of spandex and others - men- say they sometimes feel uncomfortable at tourneys.
VB may or may not have the same concentration of gay women involved ( I wonder if it does or doesn't)as BB but it certainly projects a different image. I remember watching the tournament in a bar and hearing one young lady comment on how cute the athletes hair was and another girl say that she was just thinking the same thing. Let's face it, you're not going to hear that comment at a WBB game. Because of the nature of each sport, they attract a different athlete. BB is so much more physical. The prototypical VB body wouldn't hold up for long on the BB court. Now, does that mean that because the look of volleyball players is more classically feminine that there are fewer gay women involved? I don't really know.
I think in years past there was more inappropriate fraternization among female coaches and players in WBB. I think that's a thing of the past. Is there discrimination being practiced? I'd be surprised if there's not. But I wouldn't guess that it's all coming from the schools end. I'm sure that there are parents and athletes that ask about it, especially when it comes to dorm room assignments. Do gay team mate hook up? Again, I'd be surprised if it didn't happen from time to time. I'm sure coaches have to quickly discourage such behavior but then again I know of a young lady on the BB team not long ago who became pregnant from a boy on the BB team. And then there's the drama of a straight girl sleeping with a team mates BF. It happens. I know that many coaches, at the beginning of the year, have the sex talk with incoming freshmen. I don't know if all coaches do that, but they should.
Mens sports are certainly different. Gay male athletes don't look any different than their counterparts and they will hide their true sexuality. Its more stigmatized. And I think there are fewer involved in high level sports, where womens sports see a concentration of gay athletes and therefore there's maybe a bit less of a stigma associated with it.
I'd be curious to hear what kind of training and education coaches receive on sexuality issues.
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Post by lonewolf on Jan 15, 2012 13:16:09 GMT -5
Mens sports are certainly different. Gay male athletes don't look any different than their counterparts and they will hide their true sexuality. Its more stigmatized. And I think there are fewer involved in high level sports, where womens sports see a concentration of gay athletes and therefore there's maybe a bit less of a stigma associated with it. I think you're second point outweighs your third point - that more hide it; especially as you look at the fact that if a younger girl comes out homosexual, she may get teased or ostracized; if it's a boy, well he could get beaten to death, figuratively and literally.
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Post by NebraskaVBfan93 on Jan 15, 2012 13:18:38 GMT -5
While I may not personally go so far as to say Paterno "protected" Sandusky, he sure didn't do all he could, or in the minds of most clear thinking people, should have done to make sure Sandusky's actions were investigated by the PROPER authorities, as opposed to the PSU good old boys network. Paterno wasn't a witness to Sandusky's sexual abuse crimes. How could he have made a statement to the police? Paterno reported McQueary's story to his superiors and set up a meeting between the AD and VP of Business and Finance, who had direct executive oversight of the Penn State Police Department. It was at that point that things fell apart. It had nothing to do with Paterno. There are errors of commission and errors of ommission. IMO, Joe is CLEARLY guilty of the latter. I don't know why I am trying to convince you though as you're just as adept at "circling the wagons" as they are (were).
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Post by The Bofa on the Sofa on Jan 15, 2012 15:56:03 GMT -5
Now, why a gay player would go to an environment like that is beyond me. I'm surprised it would be an issue after the first couple of seasons. There have been lots of disturbing comments in this thread, but this one needs to be addressed. Aside from mikegarrison's observation that it never stopped people from joining the military, why SHOULD a gay player have to choose another program to avoid an environment like this? That the person who joins the program is going to feel unwelcome due to their sexual orientation is pretty much a textbook example of discrimination on that basis, which is against most of these places policies. It is not the responsibility of a homosexual player to avoid programs that are hostile to homosexuality, it is the responsibility of the program to not have that hostility. "Welcoming to homosexuals" is not something that players are allowed to, nor should they have to, consider in choosing the program (for schools that include homosexuality in the equal opportunity practices). I find it extremely offensive that anyone would put the burden of preventing disruption due to the presence of a homosexual on the team on the homosexual. The phrase "if you do X, the terrorists have won" is certainly overused, but it is absolutely the case that choosing a program because you know the coach/culture is hostile to homosexuals is absolutely a victory for discrimination. "I don't bar black people from my restaurant, your honor, we just seat them in the back and out of the way and treat them like crap because my other customers don't like having them around. If I were to treat them like everyone else, I will alienate my other customers. There are plenty of other restaurants in town where they can go and feel more comfortable. I don't know why they'd want to come here anyway knowing that the other customers don't welcome them." The reason discrimination like this is because people enable it, and don't take a stand against it. If the institution has a policy of non-discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, it must not occur. I don't care who the coaches or players are, this is not acceptable. And it's not just because it is the right thing to do, it is because it is the university policy, and in some cases the law. You want to be a discriminatory bigot, find a job where that is allowable. However, given the non-discrimination policies of most institutions of higher education, it isn't going to be there. There no place for it.
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