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Post by Mocha on Mar 12, 2014 22:36:39 GMT -5
And the original topic was...?
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Post by Garand on Mar 13, 2014 3:35:11 GMT -5
Maybe this can be steered into a more useful direction. Someone mentioned the effect of losing badly and finishing last or nearly last in conference, and how it affects players. Whether or not the coach has anything to do with some players defecting, the thought and expectation of losing so many matches has to drag down the team's morale a lot. I can imagine that problem (by itself) being enough reason for a player to consider leaving for a program that, while perhaps in a much weaker conference, has a more winning record.
So I guess I'm talking about comparing two teams that might be equal in all respects except that one finishes badly in a strong conference and the other finishes higher in a weaker conference. Taking that even further, there are some teams that finish with only a handful (or fewer) wins during their seasons. (Clearly, I'm not talking about Mississippi State here: they won 12 matches last fall, so their season wasn't terrible.) Gotta be tough, though.
So again, what's the tangible effect on players of losing regularly? Has anyone who has endured this as a coach or player care to share their thoughts?
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Post by keysersoze on Mar 13, 2014 9:25:52 GMT -5
Maybe this can be steered into a more useful direction. Someone mentioned the effect of losing badly and finishing last or nearly last in conference, and how it affects players. Whether or not the coach has anything to do with some players defecting, the thought and expectation of losing so many matches has to drag down the team's morale a lot. I can imagine that problem (by itself) being enough reason for a player to consider leaving for a program that, while perhaps in a much weaker conference, has a more winning record. So I guess I'm talking about comparing two teams that might be equal in all respects except that one finishes badly in a strong conference and the other finishes higher in a weaker conference. Taking that even further, there are some teams that finish with only a handful (or fewer) wins during their seasons. (Clearly, I'm not talking about Mississippi State here: they won 12 matches last fall, so their season wasn't terrible.) Gotta be tough, though. So again, what's the tangible effect on players of losing regularly? Has anyone who has endured this as a coach or player care to share their thoughts? Garand I think you are right on with the thought process. Either it is not being able to endure all the losing or the players do not connect with the coaching staff or training. The 5 players that have left the program have gone to good schools. Some to winning programs and one not so much. I think Louisville, Kansas State, Iowa State, Indiana & Oklahoma are the schools they have gone to. The decision is different for each player I am sure but losing never helps anything.
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Post by vbman100 on Mar 14, 2014 8:55:07 GMT -5
I have been through a losing season at a D1 school. 3-25 or something like that.
There were a lot of other issues that went on off the court. Not so much intra-team issues, they got along ok. More along the lines of individuals making poor decisions and mental issues. I think that may be part of the reason it was difficult to perform well at times. I don't think we would have won 10-15 matches or something, maybe 4 or 5, but I think it was indicative of the type of people we had and performing well in tight situations was not a strong trait for them.
Some of the players had also experienced losing during the previous years, similar records. I think it did affect their self-efficacy when it came down to close games. We had a match early in conference where we could have gone up 2-0 on a team. We were up 1-0, had set point late, but a ball handling error by us and then a good play by the other team, and we were even 1-1 and lost in 4. The next night, we're up 1-0 again, big lead in set 2, and lose that set, go on to lose the match in 4. Could have been a possible 2-0 in conference if we win the first night, and the second. Instead 0-2 and not much went right from there.
It was obvious we did not have the talent that the top half of the conference had. But I think we could have won 3 or 4 conference matches that year if we start 2-0. Instead we won 0.
I thought it was weird that with that record, with a few starters hitting nearly .000, and one rarely used player after 2 years hitting negative, the coaching staff and players had almost no desire to change. Anything. Techniques, strategies, etc. It seemed like everyone thought it was everyone else's fault that we were the team we were.
There has since been a coaching change. The team's overall performance has not improved much. Maybe up about 25-30 spots in RPI. Still in the 200s.
Not sure if a change in Starkville leads to better results. But if a player leaves citing mental abuse by the coach, and a number of others end up leaving, red flags start to go up. At some places.
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Post by Garand on Mar 15, 2014 21:50:36 GMT -5
Not sure if a change in Starkville leads to better results. But if a player leaves citing mental abuse by the coach, and a number of others end up leaving, red flags start to go up. At some places.
Hard to argue with that, I guess. Still, there are often things going on about which we have no real knowledge or understanding. I jumped into this thread because the original post), seemed like a cheap shot on the coach. When someone uses their first post to attack someone, it is generally a red flag.
When a program is struggling like MSU, people cast about for something to blame. How much of this is due to the coach? Awfully hard to say without being very close to the program, but yeah, that could be the issue. On the other hand, I never heard anyone seriously worry about Rob Patrick's job when most of his team walked out last year. Maybe the biggest difference between the two programs are their W/L records.
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Post by mclvbdad on Mar 16, 2014 8:50:50 GMT -5
MSU lost 4 players, assistant coach and assistant AD this past year. Lost 8 players from team the year before. Many of these players were starters that were getting significant playing time, not disgruntled players. Many of those departing have gone on the record to state that the coach was the reason they were leaving. Those are the cold hard facts.
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Post by Garand on Mar 16, 2014 12:58:36 GMT -5
Those are the cold hard facts. I'm afraid phrases like that have become red flags here on Volleytalk. The word "fact" seems to have a less clear meaning here than in the rest of the world. Can you furnish players names to flesh out your factual statement? I'm not calling it wrong, it just seems a little extreme and I'd like to see some sort of corroboration.
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Post by Upfrontvb on Mar 16, 2014 17:41:58 GMT -5
Those are the cold hard facts. I'm afraid phrases like that have become red flags here on Volleytalk. The word "fact" seems to have a less clear meaning here than in the rest of the world. Can you furnish players names to flesh out your factual statement? I'm not calling it wrong, it just seems a little extreme and I'd like to see some sort of corroboration. IMO, I think mclvdad pretty much has a close to an insider view on MSU based on his posting over the season and since then. So I don't think his comments should draw red flags. And unless a player wants to personally comment on the situation, I don't think its mcvldad or anyone else position to list the name of those players.
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Post by Garand on Mar 16, 2014 21:19:07 GMT -5
With respect to names, I only meant girls who have left, and that was because of the seemingly large numbers.
I would never want any of the current players to risk their situation by commenting.
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Post by Upfrontvb on Mar 16, 2014 21:38:37 GMT -5
With respect to names, I only meant girls who have left, and that was because of the seemingly large numbers. I would never want any of the current players to risk their situation by commenting. Oh no, sorry garand I didn't think you meant current players, but even the ones that left still have a right to privacy. The still have reputations and you know how people talk and bridges are burned.
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Post by Mocha on Mar 16, 2014 22:01:29 GMT -5
Keep it up, last season the Pepperdine thread succeeded in driving Matthies into retirement. But unlike Pepperdine I don't think people will be lining up to be the next head coach at Mississippi State.
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Post by Garand on Mar 17, 2014 0:15:19 GMT -5
Keep it up, last season the Pepperdine thread succeeded in driving Matthies into retirement. But unlike Pepperdine I don't think people will be lining up to be the next head coach at Mississippi State. It's probably time to let this go, anyway. My original intent (which I think was obvious) was to defend the coach rather attack her. My hope is for a stable and successful season for MSU.
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Post by mclvbdad on Mar 17, 2014 11:45:56 GMT -5
Do your homework. Its simple research. And I've made my intentions clear, I care about MSU because its my alma mater. I love the school and think they can do better then they are currently doing. I've watched a lot of matches at MSU and witnessed the investments the school has made in sports facilities. I have nothing personal against the staff, I just think they are what is holding back the program at this point.
The 2012 starting setter, who was already 6th in career assists at MSU as a sophomore, walked off mid season and the coach herself was quoted in the press saying that the player said she now hated volleyball and that the coach was the reason why.
All players listed below are those with remaining eligibility. To be fair, I know a couple were nagging injury related and a few were the one and done freshmen. But several were poised to be some of the best players MSU had ever had including the first two HM All Americans in program history.
From 2013 team 4 that left so far are Sassin, McVey, Gardiner and T. Scott.
From 2012 team, 7 that left, A. Scott, Gordon, Williams, Wyman, Temperilli, Nielsen plus Perret mid year.
From 2011 team, 6 that left, Mellencamp, Stienwedell, K. Parker, Witte, Byers, H. Parker.
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Post by ryno42 on Mar 19, 2014 14:56:57 GMT -5
Wow, didn't realize those players from 2013 had left. As an MSU alum with a daughter that plays club, I followed the team some the last couple seasons. Losing that many solid young players (starters) is a definite red flag.
Is it all due to the head coach? I have no idea. On the court, MSU and Ole Miss will both typically struggle,, solely because volleyball is not popular there locally on the high school level. At MSU, the sports that are successful recruit heavily in-state. Many of the other SEC schools have an advantage in that they can find some solid players locally(A&M, Florida, Mizzou, Kentucky, etc) Club volleyball in MS is almost non-existant, which forces MSU to recruit out of state players, girls that have zero family ties to the area. These players likely are used to success at the high school/club level,, and then all of a sudden they are dropped into a situation (far away from home) where they are losing almost every set of every game. I can see how that could hurt morale/team chemistry and might cause some to look elsewhere.
That said, if MSU returned those four players in 2014, they likely would have been more competitive (not last place). I have no insider knowledge to know if another last place finish would put the coach on the hot seat, or if a 'hot seat' in volleyball at MSU is even possible. Most of the big alums who can push for coaching changes with the AD have little to no interest in volleyball.
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Post by Mocha on Mar 20, 2014 3:01:34 GMT -5
Interesting how many one-post posters are on this thread (including the OP), somehow they chose this topic to write their one and only entry.
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