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Post by huskerholiday on Feb 1, 2018 23:48:43 GMT -5
I don't disagree as long as you understand that this mentality is a form of snobbery and will eventually be the ruin of small teams. Every parent has a dream for their kids even if those kids don't have the skill to play for Nebraska. Imagine if the mentality of all becomes.....lets move just so my darling can play for a bigger and better team. I don't see it as snobbery to discuss what is actually happening, but I may be misreading that part of your message. Looking at the stats, if you want your daughter to be playing for a championship, you have a 2% chance of that happening this decade if you live west of Kearney. That's not an opinion, but the statistics of the last seven years of Nebraska State Volleyball Finals. That doesn't mean one player can't be exceptional and go on to play in college, but a competitive team is that much harder now to field for western Nebraska. sadly this is already happening. WE had a very talented girl who's mother took her to Morgan in Ogallala. It was probably a good move for her. I suppose the days of women like Behrends,Houghtelling Oxley, and Munson are gone that played for D schools.
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Post by dcvbfan on Feb 2, 2018 0:03:40 GMT -5
On my point about western Nebraska being disadvantaged, I'd be curious to hear people's thoughts on what's caused such a significant downturn in western Nebraska teams in the State finals. Is western Nebraska losing population faster than the small schools in eastern Nebraska? Is the intensity of club volleyball in eastern Nebraska making those girls that much better? Is it economic in that western Nebraska is generally poorer than eastern Nebraska and doesn't have the resources to send their girls to as many camps? I tried to upload a couple files, but apparently all of the pictures and videos in this thread have consumed all of the space. 1) Qualifiers - Only five teams west of Kearney made State out of 48 potential teams. With A-C2 district finals now seeded rather than geographically protected, only one school of 32 qualifiers from Classes A-C2 was from west of Kearney. That team was seeded against another team west of Kearney in the District finals, so one team was guaranteed to qualify from west of Kearney. The C2 qualifier was seeded 8th and lost in the second lowest scoring game of all first round games across all six classes. The other four teams were geographically protected in Classes D1 and D2. 2) State Finalists - The boundary line moves further eastward. No team west of Grand Island advanced to the State finals. That leaves 2/3 of the state without a team in the finals. 1983 is when NSAA moved to a six class system. 1983-1990: 25% of champions and 30% of finalists were public schools west of Kearney 1991-2000: 22% of champions and 23% of finalists were public schools west of Kearney 2001-2010: 10% of champions and 10% of finalists were public schools west of Kearney 2011-2017: 0% of champions and 2% of finalists were public schools west of Kearney Huge changes in three decades! It would be interesting to know how much the change to rally scoring negatively impacted western Nebraska teams - that would be the downturn from 22% to 10% and 23% to 10%, but it's dropped off even more since then. I have similar numbers for girls basketball, and it's essentially the same pattern as volleyball, so it's not all (or at all) caused by the change to rally scoring. great job on this Most of our schools are on the lower end of their classes so that poses a challenge. The same applies for football. This lends to your point but tougher competition on more populated areas. Sometimes our teams travel up to three to four hours for a single game. Schools like Ogallala, Sidney, Scottsbluff and Alliance have dropped a few classes just in the last few decades. Thanks. It's not a great story, but I hope that telling it prompts people to look into this (not just for sports, but broader economic issues) to help western Nebraska. Otherwise, the momentum is not good. I need to see if I can request records from NSAA and do some research. My hypothesis though is that all of the small D1 and D2 schools in western Nebraska were already at the lower end of their classes even in the 80s and 90s. So then it would be a question if eastern Nebraska D1 and D2 schools saw less of a % decrease in student populations than western Nebraska schools in the 2000s and now....trying to isolate some factors. Also, how many districts in the 80s and 90s were west of Kearney compared to today? Lots of different factors to isolate. To your point, I also keep wondering if the gap between western and eastern Nebraska Class A and B schools feels even more significant than it did in the 80s and 90s.
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Post by huskerholiday on Feb 2, 2018 0:09:25 GMT -5
great job on this Most of our schools are on the lower end of their classes so that poses a challenge. The same applies for football. This lends to your point but tougher competition on more populated areas. Sometimes our teams travel up to three to four hours for a single game. Schools like Ogallala, Sidney, Scottsbluff and Alliance have dropped a few classes just in the last few decades. Thanks. It's not a great story, but I hope that telling it prompts people to look into this (not just for sports, but broader economic issues) to help western Nebraska. Otherwise, the momentum is not good. I need to see if I can request records from NSAA and do some research. My hypothesis though is that all of the small D1 and D2 schools in western Nebraska were already at the lower end of their classes even in the 80s and 90s. So then it would be a question if eastern Nebraska D1 and D2 schools saw less of a % decrease in student populations than western Nebraska schools in the 2000s and now....trying to isolate some factors. Also, how many districts in the 80s and 90s were west of Kearney compared to today? Lots of different factors to isolate. To your point, I also keep wondering if the gap between western and eastern Nebraska Class A and B schools feels even more significant than it did in the 80s and 90s. Not to take this off the subject of volleyball but.....small town America is struggling. The hospitals, schools, businesses, etc are on the timeclock. I not only think its a Nebraska crisis but a nation wide crisis. If this trend continues small town America will be ghost towns. I am hoping Washington and Lincoln take notice .
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Post by FreeBall on Feb 2, 2018 7:40:09 GMT -5
On my point about western Nebraska being disadvantaged, I'd be curious to hear people's thoughts on what's caused such a significant downturn in western Nebraska teams in the State finals. Is western Nebraska losing population faster than the small schools in eastern Nebraska? Is the intensity of club volleyball in eastern Nebraska making those girls that much better? Is it economic in that western Nebraska is generally poorer than eastern Nebraska and doesn't have the resources to send their girls to as many camps? I tried to upload a couple files, but apparently all of the pictures and videos in this thread have consumed all of the space. 1) Qualifiers - Only five teams west of Kearney made State out of 48 potential teams. With A-C2 district finals now seeded rather than geographically protected, only one school of 32 qualifiers from Classes A-C2 was from west of Kearney. That team was seeded against another team west of Kearney in the District finals, so one team was guaranteed to qualify from west of Kearney. The C2 qualifier was seeded 8th and lost in the second lowest scoring game of all first round games across all six classes. The other four teams were geographically protected in Classes D1 and D2. 2) State Finalists - The boundary line moves further eastward. No team west of Grand Island advanced to the State finals. That leaves 2/3 of the state without a team in the finals. 1983 is when NSAA moved to a six class system. 1983-1990: 25% of champions and 30% of finalists were public schools west of Kearney 1991-2000: 22% of champions and 23% of finalists were public schools west of Kearney 2001-2010: 10% of champions and 10% of finalists were public schools west of Kearney 2011-2017: 0% of champions and 2% of finalists were public schools west of Kearney Huge changes in three decades! It would be interesting to know how much the change to rally scoring negatively impacted western Nebraska teams - that would be the downturn from 22% to 10% and 23% to 10%, but it's dropped off even more since then. I have similar numbers for girls basketball, and it's essentially the same pattern as volleyball, so it's not all (or at all) caused by the change to rally scoring. I'm wondering what percentage of school districts are located west of Kearney and how the percentage compares to what it was in the 1980's. Probably a fairly sizable reduction? Due primarily to consolidations, the total number of school districts in Nebraska has decreased significantly since the 1980's. I've thought for awhile that it really doesn't make sense to have six classes for high school sports anymore. The most recent information I could find shows that there are only 286 school districts in the state, so the total number of high schools is probably less than 350.
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Post by Floyd R. Turbo on Feb 2, 2018 9:16:20 GMT -5
Due primarily to consolidations, the total number of school districts in Nebraska has decreased significantly since the 1980's. I've thought for awhile that it really doesn't make sense to have six classes for high school sports anymore. The most recent information I could find shows that there are only 286 school districts in the state, so the total number of high schools is probably less than 350. According to the NSAA website, there are 304 high schools in the state, ranging from the largest (Omaha South with 2,006 students) to the smallest (Wheeler Central, with 9). Since some of the smaller schools co-op with other schools in athletics, there were 285 teams (single high school teams or co-ops) competing in volleyball in 2017.
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Post by BuckysHeat on Feb 2, 2018 10:49:17 GMT -5
According to the NSAA website, there are 304 high schools in the state, ranging from the largest (Omaha South with 2,006 students) to the smallest (Wheeler Central, with 9). Since some of the smaller schools co-op with other schools in athletics, there were 285 teams (single high school teams or co-ops) competing in volleyball in 2017. www.publicschoolreview.com/wheeler-central-high-school-profileAccording to this page, Wheeler central actually has 39 students through grades 7-12; I had doubts that the school had 9 total students. However that also answers Huskers question/comment. What fiscal reason is there to keep a school that has at most 12 kids per grade, it is fiscally irresponsible and wasteful. However, the entire county has 818 people (2010 census), it is the only high school in the county. Given the tiny size, is it any wonder people with kids are looking elsewhere? Our daughters open enroll to larger schools because there are more options and guaranteed classes as opposed to the district we are in which has an enrollment of 400+. I would go nuts and feel desperate if there were a total of 7 teachers across 6 grades in my kids school. Further, the district spends $22,526 per student compared to (randomly chosen Lincoln school) Lincoln High School (enrollment 1,741) which spends $11,382 per student. It is not snobbery to overlook the western half, it is reality unfortunately.
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Post by BuckysHeat on Feb 2, 2018 11:06:48 GMT -5
Additional schools: HS at Dunning (Blaine County) - 56 students, grades 7-12 $21,415 per student Greeley county does not have a high school, only an elementary school (PK-6) with 150 students Arthur County HS - 43 students Banner County HS - 76 students Hyannis HS (Grant county) - 67 students Hayes center Secondary School - 47 students Mullen HS (Hooker county) - 100 students Loup County HS - 39 students Mc Pherson County Secondary - 37 students
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Post by milkmandan on Feb 2, 2018 11:08:22 GMT -5
Small-town America is dying because there's shrinking economic opportunity. Population boomed in rural areas in the 1800's when the government gave away land, and you survived by farming, trading, and God's will.
To survive in rural America now, if you're not a family farmer, you need someone to work for. With the corporatization of everything making it harder for smaller businesses to thrive, good luck reversing that trend.
What you need is massive investment in small towns. From roads to housing to electrical grids to high-speed Internet. Things that helped boost rural America in the 1930's and 40's with rural electrification. Ironically, that scale of big-picture government investment would be staunchly opposed by the same small-town conservative people it would help. They'd complain taxes are too high and the government shouldn't be involved.
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Post by Floyd R. Turbo on Feb 2, 2018 11:23:49 GMT -5
According to the NSAA website, there are 304 high schools in the state, ranging from the largest (Omaha South with 2,006 students) to the smallest (Wheeler Central, with 9). Since some of the smaller schools co-op with other schools in athletics, there were 285 teams (single high school teams or co-ops) competing in volleyball in 2017. www.publicschoolreview.com/wheeler-central-high-school-profileAccording to this page, Wheeler central actually has 39 students through grades 7-12; I had doubts that the school had 9 total students. However that also answers Huskers question/comment. What fiscal reason is there to keep a school that has at most 12 kids per grade, it is fiscally irresponsible and wasteful. However, the entire county has 818 people (2010 census), it is the only high school in the county. Given the tiny size, is it any wonder people with kids are looking elsewhere? Our daughters open enroll to larger schools because there are more options and guaranteed classes as opposed to the district we are in which has an enrollment of 400+. I would go nuts and feel desperate if there were a total of 7 teachers across 6 grades in my kids school. Further, the district spends $22,526 per student compared to (randomly chosen Lincoln school) Lincoln High School (enrollment 1,741) which spends $11,382 per student. It is not snobbery to overlook the western half, it is reality. Regarding Wheeler Central...the NSAA counts students in this year's grades 9-11 and then classifies schools for next year's athletics. Perhaps they have 15 kids each in grades 7 and 8 but smaller classes in grades 9-11. The past two years they had 16 students in high school. In athletics, they co-op with Chambers (enrollment of 30). The enrollment stats are here.As small towns shrink and the number of kids living on farms goes down as well, the per-pupil cost is going to keep rising. Consolidating schools will reduce that per-pupil cost but at some point you have to look at how many miles the kids will be every day to/from school. There are no easy answers.
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Post by FreeBall on Feb 2, 2018 11:29:26 GMT -5
According to the NSAA website, there are 304 high schools in the state, ranging from the largest (Omaha South with 2,006 students) to the smallest (Wheeler Central, with 9). Since some of the smaller schools co-op with other schools in athletics, there were 285 teams (single high school teams or co-ops) competing in volleyball in 2017. www.publicschoolreview.com/wheeler-central-high-school-profileAccording to this page, Wheeler central actually has 39 students through grades 7-12; I had doubts that the school had 9 total students. However that also answers Huskers question/comment. What fiscal reason is there to keep a school that has at most 12 kids per grade, it is fiscally irresponsible and wasteful. However, the entire county has 818 people (2010 census), it is the only high school in the county. Given the tiny size, is it any wonder people with kids are looking elsewhere? Our daughters open enroll to larger schools because there are more options and guaranteed classes as opposed to the district we are in which has an enrollment of 400+. I would go nuts and feel desperate if there were a total of 7 teachers across 6 grades in my kids school. Further, the district spends $22,526 per student compared to (randomly chosen Lincoln school) Lincoln High School (enrollment 1,741) which spends $11,382 per student. It is not snobbery to overlook the western half, it is reality. The classification system in Nebraska high schools (except for football) looks at total enrollment in grades 9-11. Football uses just the number of boys in grades 9-11. The smaller schools such as Wheeler Central can have significant swings in their enrollment figures for classification purposes. Figures for the current year show Wheeler Central with an enrollment of 16 for classification purposes, so it's possible that nine was an accurate figure for a prior year, or nine may have been the number of boys for football classification. As shown by the 2010 Census figure in your post, many counties in western Nebraska have populations of less than 1,000 people. This limits the number of potential students for the schools and also creates a bigger financial burden to maintain school systems. There has been significant consolidation of schools statewide over the past 30+ years and many schools such as Wheeler Central now have cooperative arrangements with neighboring schools for both activities and academics. The pace of school consolidation in Nebraska has probably slowed in recent years due (primarily) to geography. At some point further consolidation doesn't make sense if students have to spend unreasonable amounts of time traveling long distances to and from school each day. This is an ongoing issue of great importance as the State of Nebraska deals with declining population in many areas of the state, as well as fiscal issues related to financing public education. Scholarly article regarding the recent history of school reorganization in Nebraska: digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1224&context=cehsedaddiss
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Post by 402 on Feb 2, 2018 12:38:13 GMT -5
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Post by ibleedred on Feb 5, 2018 18:04:00 GMT -5
With regards to classes C and D in Nebraska HS volleyball - I would be interested in stats showing how many title contenders were private schools. It's pretty easy for a private school in Lincoln to get the talent to be a title contender in Class C1, when they can recruit from a large city population. This makes a huge disadvantage for Western NE schools. I think private schools should be classified by the population of the city they are in, rather than enrollment. Or at least bump them up one division compared to their enrollment peers. Look through state title matches for class C1 and C2 and its pretty obvious this has been an unfair advantage.
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Post by huskerholiday on Feb 5, 2018 18:16:12 GMT -5
With regards to classes C and D in Nebraska HS volleyball - I would be interested in stats showing how many title contenders were private schools. It's pretty easy for a private school in Lincoln to get the talent to be a title contender in Class C1, when they can recruit from a large city population. This makes a huge disadvantage for Western NE schools. I think private schools should be classified by the population of the city they are in, rather than enrollment. Or at least bump them up one division compared to their enrollment peers. Look through state title matches for class C1 and C2 and its pretty obvious this has been an unfair advantage. I agree. The advantage of parochial schools to public is extremely obvious. If you look at the ratio of State Champions, parachial vs public, its unreal.
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Post by dcvbfan on Feb 5, 2018 23:33:34 GMT -5
With regards to classes C and D in Nebraska HS volleyball - I would be interested in stats showing how many title contenders were private schools. It's pretty easy for a private school in Lincoln to get the talent to be a title contender in Class C1, when they can recruit from a large city population. This makes a huge disadvantage for Western NE schools. I think private schools should be classified by the population of the city they are in, rather than enrollment. Or at least bump them up one division compared to their enrollment peers. Look through state title matches for class C1 and C2 and its pretty obvious this has been an unfair advantage. When I ran the numbers on west of Kearney, I also did public/private schools (statewide) and consolidated schools (statewide). I wish this site would let me upload the Excel file or even a screenshot of it, but here's the data. Copying and pasting from Excel wasn't great, so I had to create a key. WKC = Public Champ west of Kearney WKF = Public Finalist west of Kearney PC = Private School Champ PF =Private School Finalist CC = Consolidated School Champ CF = Consolidated School Finalist 2011-2017 WKC WKF PC. PF. CC. CF. Class A 0 1 4 6 0 0 Class B 0 0 4 6 2 2 Class C1 0 0 6 9 0 1 Class C2 0 0 3 5 0 2 Class D1 0 0 2 3 4 10 Class D2 0 1 0 1 2 3 Total 0 2 19 30 8 18 % 0% 2% 45% 36% 19% 21% 2001-2010 WKC WKF PC. PF. CC. CF. Class A 0 0 1 4 0 0 Class B 0 0 6 9 0 1 Class C1 0 0 9 16 0 0 Class C2 0 2 8 10 1 4 Class D1 3 5 2 6 4 9 Class D2 3 5 1 1 2 3 Total 6 12 27 46 7 17 % 10% 10% 45% 38% 12% 14% 1991-2000 WKC WKF PC. PF. CC. CF. Class A 0 0 1 1 0 0 Class B 1 4 6 9 1 1 Class C1 1 2 7 11 0 3 Class C2 5 5 0 1 6 12 Class D1 6 12 2 3 2 6 Class D2 0 4 0 2 1 2 Total 13 27 16 27 10 24 % 22% 23% 27% 23% 17% 20% 1983-1990 (1983 six classes were introduced) WKC WKF PC. PF. CC. CF. Class A 0 0 1 1 0 0 Class B 4 8 4 6 0 0 Class C1 1 3 2 3 2 7 Class C2 3 5 4 7 1 1 Class D1 3 5 0 1 1 2 Class D2 1 8 1 1 0 0 Total 12 29 12 19 4 10 % 25% 30% 25% 20% 8% 10%
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Post by dcvbfan on Feb 5, 2018 23:45:13 GMT -5
Interesting to see that private schools went from winning 25% of the championships in the 80s to winning 45% of the championships since 2001.
You also see the explosion of private school C1 champions. 2 Class C1 champions for eight years in the 80s. 7 Class C1 champions in the 90s. 9 (out of 10) Class C1 champions in the 2000s and now 6 Class C1 champions in 7 years since 2011. From 2001-2010 16 of the 20 Class C1 finalists were private schools (80%). That's now 64% for 2011 on.
In Class C2, it's interesting to see that private school champions went from 4 in the 80s, to 0 in the 90s to 8 in the 2000s. That's decreased since 2011. Perhaps becoming harder for private schools at the C2 size level?
Class B is about holding steady, but Class A took off from 1 private school champion a decade to 4 private school champions in the past 7 years.
On the consolidated school front, it's interesting to see a surge of the % of champions every other decade. Perhaps the pattern of school consolidations? Newly consolidated schools win more immediately after a merger as they're the top of their Class in size, and then as the future plays out and the school population decreases, they begin to drop off.
Interesting to see the Class B numbers for west of Kearney. 4 champions west of Kearney in the 80s and then 0 since 2001. If you look at champions and finalists by class over the decades, you see the numbers pushing down from Class A to then only B, then only C, and then only D (with the exception of one since 2011).
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