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Post by onfiya on Oct 23, 2014 10:30:12 GMT -5
Admittedly, I haven't seen a lot of lower division volleyball. I've seen Southwestern and UT Dallas play, and in my opinion, they aren't NEARLY as good as several high school teams in Texas. I'll take your word for it, but I think the quality of lower division vb is being way over exaggerated, outside of a handful of programs that can compete with the big girls. Those are outliers, far from the norm, and they should be very proud of their programs.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 14:22:01 GMT -5
As someone who coached multiple years in Division III, I can speak first hand to a lot of what is being discussed. I have played (coached) against Southwestern and UT Dallas multiple times with wins and losses each way. One of my most memorable games ever as a coach was against UTD in which we trailed 2-0 in their gym and came back to win 18-16 in the fifth. With the level of high school play in Texas I will give that many HS teams could beat a number of DIII teams, but it's probably not as high as some may think. Nationally, there are a number of very highly skilled DIII teams that could beat a decent amount of DI teams, but I would only reserve that assumption for the top ranked teams in DIII. I have competed against top-ranked DIII teams and although I've never competed against lower level DI teams, I do have an understanding of how bad they are and have played teams that have defeated them.
Being around DIII athletics for nearly eight years, perhaps the most common phrase I heard was "the only difference between DI and DIII is height." While that might be the primary notable difference (and it's more a prominent thought in guys athletics), there are plenty of six-footers in DIII that aren't very good and plenty of undersized kids in DI that are phenomenal players. There's a reason some kids are getting scholarship offers and others aren't. Likewise, there are certain reasons some kids opt to go DIII while others don't.
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Post by onfiya on Oct 23, 2014 16:53:00 GMT -5
Well said. I think we can all agree, probably just needed someone to state it in a more eloquent way than I was...
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Post by crawdaddy on Oct 23, 2014 17:07:32 GMT -5
One big reason why DIII can (and does) attract D1 level talent (i.e., kids who could play D1) is because of academics. There are numerous DIII schools (MIT, Chicago, Wash U, Emory, Pomona, Colorado College, Amherst, Williams etc) that are among the best (and hardest to get into) colleges in the country. So lets say you have an academically minded kid who is being recruited by the bottom third of D1 colleges, but one of these highly selective DIII colleges promises admission to their college. If the family doesn't need the scholarship money, that's a pretty attractive offer.
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Post by strikestwice on Oct 23, 2014 17:30:15 GMT -5
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Post by vbcoltrane on Oct 23, 2014 20:21:16 GMT -5
One big reason why DIII can (and does) attract D1 level talent (i.e., kids who could play D1) is because of academics. There are numerous DIII schools (MIT, Chicago, Wash U, Emory, Pomona, Colorado College, Amherst, Williams etc) that are among the best (and hardest to get into) colleges in the country. So lets say you have an academically minded kid who is being recruited by the bottom third of D1 colleges, but one of these highly selective DIII colleges promises admission to their college. If the family doesn't need the scholarship money, that's a pretty attractive offer. Exactly. Happens in tennis (and I'm sure other sports) as well. This is not the case for every player of course, but plenty of athletes do make this academic choice. True, there are no athletic scholarships in DIII, but there can be generous financial aid packages (need-based aid) and merit based scholarships.
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Post by bigfan on Oct 23, 2014 20:25:03 GMT -5
On the west coast La Verne
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Post by The Bofa on the Sofa on Oct 24, 2014 7:11:05 GMT -5
How many D2/D3/NAIA games do you go to in a given year? Do you at least have a Richkern.com subscription? Here are a couple of highlights for you... Grambling lost in 4 to Wiley, Pablo 141 in NAIA. Alcorn State lost to Belhaven (11-15, NAIA 158) who has lost to two D3's including Rhodes (D3 268). Alcorn also lost to Tougaloo (7-16, pablo of NAIA 213) and was blown out by Mississippi College who is a D3 reclassifying to D2. If this doesn't show that "hundreds of nonD1 schools can beat the bottom teams in D1" I don't know what else to say. The D1 teams above lost to below average NAIA teams. That means they are worse than the top half or so of d2, which is comparable to d1, and probably 1/4 or 1/3 of d3, so another 100 or more teams. Yeah, I can easily see a d1 team being in that 800 range., The results above show it.
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Post by springs on Oct 24, 2014 10:19:25 GMT -5
Looks like a logjam in the Great Lakes...and this was out before Calvin def. Hope 3-1. Will this shake things up? Will the committee move either Hope, Wittenberg, Calvin to another region (3 of the top 4 in the AVCA poll)?
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Post by oldman on Oct 24, 2014 10:29:38 GMT -5
Admittedly, I haven't seen a lot of lower division volleyball. I've seen Southwestern and UT Dallas play, and in my opinion, they aren't NEARLY as good as several high school teams in Texas. I'll take your word for it, but I think the quality of lower division vb is being way over exaggerated, outside of a handful of programs that can compete with the big girls. Those are outliers, far from the norm, and they should be very proud of their programs. If you haven't seen a lot then your opinion does not mean a lot. This get discussed from time to time on this board. Top DII and III teams play very competitive volleyball and can and do beat D I programs. Yeah, Yeah Yeah... not Top 20 programs but plenty of other programs...it just spring games....D I coaches play different line ups and so on and so on.....
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Post by vbnerd on Oct 24, 2014 11:35:09 GMT -5
Admittedly, I haven't seen a lot of lower division volleyball. I've seen Southwestern and UT Dallas play, and in my opinion, they aren't NEARLY as good as several high school teams in Texas. I'll take your word for it, but I think the quality of lower division vb is being way over exaggerated, outside of a handful of programs that can compete with the big girls. Those are outliers, far from the norm, and they should be very proud of their programs. I think you are exaggerating the quality of bad D1 volleyball. The SWAC, MEAC, MAAC, NEC, America East... throw in NJIT, Chicago State, The Citadel, there is some really bad volleyball in D1.
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Post by onfiya on Oct 24, 2014 12:46:52 GMT -5
No doubt there are some horrible DI teams playing volleyball, several have been mentioned. No doubt there are some great volleyball programs at lower division schools. The education opportunity at some of these institutions way overshadows anything concerning volleyball, and those student-athletes should be highly commended for choosing a school based on academics. But the idea that outside of the top 20 DI schools, there is a TON of DII, DIII and NAIA's out there that are just as competitive, is really absurd. To get to the number of 444 teams better than La Salle (see that spelling) between those three divisions, it would be an average of basically 150 per. Now just think about that. The #150 team in DI isn't that great. Am I to believe that the #150 in DII is? And the quality just gets lower and lower as you drop divisions. There is absolutely no way on God's green earth that the 150th ranked DIII or NAIA school could beat La Salle. Maybe the 40th. Maybe the 87th, but no way 150th. I don't even like La Salle! This is just a case of an analytics junkie having way too much time on his/her hands.
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Post by jcvball22 on Oct 24, 2014 12:54:29 GMT -5
Admittedly, I haven't seen a lot of lower division volleyball. I've seen Southwestern and UT Dallas play, and in my opinion, they aren't NEARLY as good as several high school teams in Texas. I'll take your word for it, but I think the quality of lower division vb is being way over exaggerated, outside of a handful of programs that can compete with the big girls. Those are outliers, far from the norm, and they should be very proud of their programs. If you haven't seen a lot then your opinion does not mean a lot. This get discussed from time to time on this board. Top DII and III teams play very competitive volleyball and can and do beat D I programs. Yeah, Yeah Yeah... not Top 20 programs but plenty of other programs...it just spring games....D I coaches play different line ups and so on and so on..... But, but, but.... DIVISION I !!!! As someone who has coached, played and watched volleyball at nearly every level (men's included), I get so annoyed by the elitist "Division I is the only way, all other volleyball is garbage" arguments that pop up on here from time to time. There is darn good volleyball being played at all levels... and some truly atrocious volleyball being played at all levels as well. And for that spring game argument... DIII schools especially are usually missing a chunk of their junior classes to study abroad, quite a few athletes play more than one sport, so aren't there and they are trying new line-ups. So that argument doesn't hold water. And oldman, I know you are refuting that argument, but I have a feeling a lot of people won't get it...
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Post by oldman on Oct 24, 2014 13:09:15 GMT -5
No doubt there are some horrible DI teams playing volleyball, several have been mentioned. No doubt there are some great volleyball programs at lower division schools. The education opportunity at some of these institutions way overshadows anything concerning volleyball, and those student-athletes should be highly commended for choosing a school based on academics. But the idea that outside of the top 20 DI schools, there is a TON of DII, DIII and NAIA's out there that are just as competitive, is really absurd. To get to the number of 444 teams better than La Salle (see that spelling) between those three divisions, it would be an average of basically 150 per. Now just think about that. The #150 team in DI isn't that great. Am I to believe that the #150 in DII is? And the quality just gets lower and lower as you drop divisions. There is absolutely no way on God's green earth that the 150th ranked DIII or NAIA school could beat La Salle. Maybe the 40th. Maybe the 87th, but no way 150th. I don't even like La Salle! This is just a case of an analytics junkie having way too much time on his/her hands. Umm not sure anyone said that the 200th D III team could beat 200th D I but maybe I missed something.
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Post by Not Me on Oct 25, 2014 9:48:00 GMT -5
Being from the north east, I am familiar with the lower level team, as that is what we mostly have up here.
The DI teams are not high quality, and they deserve to be where they are in Pablo. The kids playing on these teams were not recruited by good DI programs, or good DII programs, or even the good DII programs. I see kids on a DI team whom i saw in school and club, and they could not play for many of the DII or DIII programs ranked above them in Pablo.
Are there DII & DIII teams better than a LaSalle, yes of course. How many? Very hard to say, as DI does very little cross divisional play. - probably because they don't want their DI myth bubble burst.
According to Pablo, for LaSalle,
91 % of the D1 teams are better 73% of D2 are better 29% of D3 are better 43% of NAIA are better
I think those percentages for D2 and D3 are a little high, but probably not that far off.
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