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Post by Cubicle No More ... on Apr 2, 2015 14:19:56 GMT -5
i'm not sure the solution is splitting the MPSF. sure that will accomplish getting 2 automatic bids for "west coast" schools. but that doesn't really address the underlying issues -- which is that, like it or not, as the NCAA tournament for the men's side expands, they will rely on things like RPI, with all of its flaws.
even if the MPSF splits into 2 conferences, the issues for overcoming the RPI's flaws remain. the "west coast" schools still will have the same pool of "west coast" schools to play against. whether the MPSF remains one conference or splits into 2, the bottom line is that the "west coast" schools have to schedule with the RPI in mind ... which ultimately means scheduling more midwest and east schools, whether it be inviting them to come out west, or pursuing those matches by traveling out that way.
vbold above has it right. of course loyola would want to schedule more matches against MPSF-like opponents. but at the same time they have their pick of the erskines and mckendrees to play against out where they are, which can boost loyola's RPI. (incidentally, it looks like loyola's match against erskine was cancelled this season due to weather issues at the time of scheduling, but my point remains). and this is no disrespect to programs starting out in the midwest and east. everyone's gotta start somewhere, and those programs will get better.
when pepperdine was "snubbed" last year, they had played no one outside of the MPSF schools. their only out-of-conference matches were against alberta, which, of course, did nothing to help them at NCAA selection time.
everyone knows now what the selection criteria are. that the RPI is now part of that criteria, is a new thing. coaches on the women's side have been playing the RPI-game for years. and those that didn't would get burned come NCAA tournament time. you can love or hate the criteria, but every coach knows what they are. and if they don't put together a schedule that at least attempts to address that criteria, then that coach is doing his team a disservice.
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Post by halesvb11 on Apr 2, 2015 14:39:26 GMT -5
The reason the MPSF is so strong is because the MPSF is so strong. The other conferences had to start coming out here in order to play good volleyball so they could get good. I don't think splitting the conference makes sense if your goal is to keep the good teams from "beating up on each other". It's a huge advantage to have played every good team twice before entering the tournament. That's one of the reasons LIVBC, Ultimate, Bootlegger, etc.. have started making the trek to the SoCal Qualifier. They don't want to show up at nationals never having seen Balboa, 949, HBC, SCVC, and the other top guns. Do you think Loyola really wants to waste time driving 5 hours to play McKendree or flying to play Grand Canyon? Be glad the MPSF is so strong. A rising tide lifts all boats. I agree with the "they're good because they're good" logic, and playing the best competition on a regular basis will only raise the game of everyone involved. However, I need you to elaborate on how MIVA and EIVA teams playing 2 or 3 matches a year against MPSF teams will bring them up to the level of MPSF teams. I think the juniors comparison is a bit flawed as well. Saying that the east coast teams coming out west to play against better competition is one thing, but I feel that a large portion of it is player exposure as well. I grew up on the east coast and have followed for a while, and know quite a few coaches, both juniors and college. Getting the best east coast kids seen by the right coaches can only be done one way - and that is going to the tournaments in California. Competition has something to do with it, but it's not the main reason. You can't play in California, in college, if you've never been seen by the coaches that live there. I honestly think a lot of the reason that the MPSF teams are heads and shoulders above the rest has to do with the fact that they're, for the most part, located in southern California. It's in the culture (when is the last time you heard of a guy trying out for a girls team in California?). The weather is AMAZING compared to lots of the other pockets where guys play. Where would you rather live/play/learn for the next 4 or 5 years, Irvine, State College, Columbus, or Princeton? I agree with some of your logic, just trying to understand where you're coming from on the points where we disagree.
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Post by longboard56er on Apr 2, 2015 14:49:08 GMT -5
Dude, So then the Cali. teams should come out and play the MIVA teams and win the "Head to Head"...but they don't.This would also go towards their overall win/loss record. So they will only make the tourney in their "Lean Years" and the top MIVA teams keep rollin'. LOL
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Post by ilvball on Apr 2, 2015 14:55:28 GMT -5
The match looked like the entire Lewis student population was there. I was unable to go to the match, but watched it online via the Free student run Lewis AV department.. it was free
Was there a yellow card issued to the Lewis Bench? for the (usually uncontrolled Lewis fans) sorry but it is true..
What school would let their fans stand on the floor that close to the players?
Did anyone else see that fans were throwing things on the court during the match? The commentators mentioned it..
Loyola was outplayed and Lewis played well. Can't wait to see if Loyola can get it together in the MIVA tournament.
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Post by 808valleyguy on Apr 2, 2015 15:24:13 GMT -5
Make it an 8 team tourney. There are usually that many teams in any given season that can take the whole thing.
Expanding to 6 was a step in the right direction, but imo just fell short of what was really needed.
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Post by robonthemic on Apr 2, 2015 16:04:02 GMT -5
Make it an 8 team tourney. There are usually that many teams in any given season that can take the whole thing. Expanding to 6 was a step in the right direction, but imo just fell short of what was really needed. I'm all for expanding to 8 teams because the quality of teams is expanding across the US certainly. I've enjoyed following across the MIVA and what's been happening. We're beginning to see upsets and 5-set thrillers from non-traditional-powerhouse teams of reputable programs in non-conference and conference play. It's all good for the game, but something we have got to watch on the sidelines is this story that was sent out by a friend over at USAV: sports.yahoo.com/news/u-s--olympic-committee--candidly-concerned--non-revenue-college-sports-will-be-cut-212917571-ncaab.htmlObviously this is a discussion for another thread, but Men's Volleyball would be on the chopping block. I just don't see the NCAA moving to an 8-team format unless they're able to get revenue from the sport of MVB.
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Post by soljah808 on Apr 2, 2015 16:04:57 GMT -5
The reason the MPSF is so strong is because the MPSF is so strong. The other conferences had to start coming out here in order to play good volleyball so they could get good. I don't think splitting the conference makes sense if your goal is to keep the good teams from "beating up on each other". It's a huge advantage to have played every good team twice before entering the tournament. That's one of the reasons LIVBC, Ultimate, Bootlegger, etc.. have started making the trek to the SoCal Qualifier. They don't want to show up at nationals never having seen Balboa, 949, HBC, SCVC, and the other top guns. Do you think Loyola really wants to waste time driving 5 hours to play McKendree or flying to play Grand Canyon? Be glad the MPSF is so strong. A rising tide lifts all boats. I find it a blessing Hawaii is in the MPSF......its quality competition week in and week out. Even the lower tier teams if you don't watch out....could capitalize. I just have a hard time seeing teams hurt in the mpsf simply because the competition is good and everyone beats up on everyone. Which in turn hurts their RPI. Breaking up the conference and allow them to cross play and consider it OOC I'm assuming might help the RPI. Idk. Just irritated.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 16:10:47 GMT -5
The match looked like the entire Lewis student population was there. I was unable to go to the match, but watched it online via the Free student run Lewis AV department.. it was free Was there a yellow card issued to the Lewis Bench? for the (usually uncontrolled Lewis fans) sorry but it is true.. What school would let their fans stand on the floor that close to the players? Did anyone else see that fans were throwing things on the court during the match? The commentators mentioned it.. Loyola was outplayed and Lewis played well. Can't wait to see if Loyola can get it together in the MIVA tournament. No yellow cards in match.
Nothing thrown on the court during match.
It was the Loyola bus students that arrived late. They were standing behind the team benches and actually leaning on and over the chairs. They were a little unruly and causing the trouble. Must have been a fun bus ride down from the lake. Fans in the first row and alongside the court were a non-issue for the entire match.
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Post by Cubicle No More ... on Apr 2, 2015 17:17:31 GMT -5
The reason the MPSF is so strong is because the MPSF is so strong. The other conferences had to start coming out here in order to play good volleyball so they could get good. I don't think splitting the conference makes sense if your goal is to keep the good teams from "beating up on each other". It's a huge advantage to have played every good team twice before entering the tournament. That's one of the reasons LIVBC, Ultimate, Bootlegger, etc.. have started making the trek to the SoCal Qualifier. They don't want to show up at nationals never having seen Balboa, 949, HBC, SCVC, and the other top guns. Do you think Loyola really wants to waste time driving 5 hours to play McKendree or flying to play Grand Canyon? Be glad the MPSF is so strong. A rising tide lifts all boats. I find it a blessing Hawaii is in the MPSF......its quality competition week in and week out. Even the lower tier teams if you don't watch out....could capitalize. I just have a hard time seeing teams hurt in the mpsf simply because the competition is good and everyone beats up on everyone. Which in turn hurts their RPI. Breaking up the conference and allow them to cross play and consider it OOC I'm assuming might help the RPI. Idk. Just irritated. for RPI, the quality of your opponent doesn't matter. it's a formula that takes into account your own win percentage (25% of the formula), your opponents' win percentage (50% of the formula), and your opponents' opponents' win percentage (25%). so it doesn't really matter if there is one MPSF conference or if it's split into two. if all you play are the "west coast" teams, then it will hurt you in the RPI. the key to the RPI is scheduling teams who will end up having a good win/loss record. if all the west coast teams just beat up on each other, it just means you're playing good quality teams who are carrying a lot of losses. but go to the east and midwest, and you might find a few more teams with good win/loss records, just because there are more programs out there. no matter what, you need to put together a schedule with some regional diversity. albeit, men's volleyball is just a small sample. there's only so many men's programs. this regional bias is more pronounced in the women's game. so i don't know if the regional bias will play out exactly the same way. but if you look at where the growth in the men's game has occurred, it's happening not on the west coast ... but in the east and midwest. if there is a bigger pool of teams that you can schedule against, it's much easier to schedule with the RPI in mind.
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Post by blueandgreen on Apr 2, 2015 18:57:38 GMT -5
The challenge for the MPSF teams is that they only have 4 free dates to schedule out of conference matches. The MIVA has an advantage regarding cross conference play with significantly more open dates and easier travel options.
If the MPSF was to break into 2 conferences to improve their RPI and allow more out-of-conference play, the losers could very well be the likes of UCSD and Cal Baptist. If you didn't have to play them for league play, would you skip them and instead schedule a stronger opponent to boost your RPI? Look what happened to Hawaii's RPI ranking after playing and beating UCSD twice. Dropped from 1st to 4th. And talk about unintended consequences, the current RPI structure driving a MPSF split could ultimately end men's volleyball at those bottom MPSF schools.
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Post by Cubicle No More ... on Apr 2, 2015 19:14:28 GMT -5
The challenge for the MPSF teams is that they only have 4 free dates to schedule out of conference matches. The MIVA has an advantage regarding cross conference play with significantly more open dates and easier travel options. If the MPSF was to break into 2 conferences to improve their RPI and allow more out-of-conference play, the losers could very well be the likes of UCSD and Cal Baptist. If you didn't have to play them for league play, would you skip them and instead schedule a stronger opponent to boost your RPI? Look what happened to Hawaii's RPI ranking after playing and beating UCSD twice. Dropped from 1st to 4th. And talk about unintended consequences, the current RPI structure driving a MPSF split could ultimately end men's volleyball at those bottom MPSF schools. true! i forgot about that ... and you wouldn't have to play them twice! ultimately, we know the RPI can be gamed. if it takes a split of the MPSF to help teams game the system, then so be it. but, as you say, i'd hate for it to mean the demise of some programs.
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Post by roy on Apr 2, 2015 22:25:41 GMT -5
If the MPSF was to break into 2 conferences to improve their RPI and allow more out-of-conference play, the losers could very well be the likes of UCSD and Cal Baptist. I'll sort of agree and disagree to this. What would be likely is that one conference takes one of them while the other conference takes the other so neither conference is greatly affected but would still have to play at least one of them twice. The benefit to all of this is that is becomes easier to recruit better players and possibly get other schools to field a team (Title IX and budgets being the other factors). Not quite sure, but I recall that was one reason Grand Canyon didn't want to be a part of the MPSF. Climbing that ladder is a monumental task just based on the number of teams. The bottom third of the conference doesn't even make the MPSF tournament. The MIVA, with fewer teams, makes it easier. I believe everyone makes it to the tournament and just one win allows an up and coming team to say that they made it to the semi-finals of their conference. I also think this is going to force the MPSF teams to travel east. The problem may be budgets. The schools are so used to staying in California and not needing a large travel budget. I could see the ADs against the move because that will mean they need more money to fill gaps in the schedule.
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Post by soljah808 on Apr 2, 2015 23:35:43 GMT -5
The challenge for the MPSF teams is that they only have 4 free dates to schedule out of conference matches. The MIVA has an advantage regarding cross conference play with significantly more open dates and easier travel options. If the MPSF was to break into 2 conferences to improve their RPI and allow more out-of-conference play, the losers could very well be the likes of UCSD and Cal Baptist. If you didn't have to play them for league play, would you skip them and instead schedule a stronger opponent to boost your RPI? Look what happened to Hawaii's RPI ranking after playing and beating UCSD twice. Dropped from 1st to 4th. And talk about unintended consequences, the current RPI structure driving a MPSF split could ultimately end men's volleyball at those bottom MPSF schools. MPSF- UCLA, Pepperdine, USC, BYU, UCSD, Stanford Big West- Hawaii, UCSB, UCI, Cal Baptist, CSUN, LBSU Allows teams the ability to schedule more OOC games.....allows those conferences to play cross games that would be considered OOC. Could help with a teams RPI. Gives teams the ability to schedule more games against mid west and Carolina schools. Give each conference an auto bid and cause all five conferences to battle for the only at large bid. Or expand the NCAA tourney to 8. The split could cause teams like UCSD and Cal Baptist to get with the program and play up.....if not....the ball is in their court. And it may just may entice other schools on the west coast to start etablishing mvb programs knowing that they may just have a chance at building a program and getting to the NCAAs one day.
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Post by soljah808 on Apr 3, 2015 2:04:03 GMT -5
What do you mean by "get with the program and play up"? Like magically have these division 2 schools have the resources to field teams of the same quality as schools like USC and Stanford? Cal Bap was until recently an NAIA program with a roster full of international players and have had to rebuild the program to comply with NCAA regulations. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe UCSD does not have athletic scholarships and academic money is hard to come by. West coast non D1 programs have a tough time recruiting with so many juggernauts getting all of the high level recruits. I think a split conference may cause recruits to take a second glance at teams like UCSD and Cal Baptist especially if the split lessens a teams hurdle of breaking into the NCAAs. The MPSF is so large....it is extremely difficult to get in now with so many good teams compacted into one huge conference. Hawaii is an example of never having won an mpsf mvb tournament championship before. And with it being a pretty decent program and numerous all Americans over the years.....its hard to believe really. A split opens the way "hopefully" for teams like UCSD and Cal Baptist to garner recruits that maybe would NOT normally look in their direction because of lack of success. That what I meant about playing up and getting with the program.
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Post by gobruins on Apr 3, 2015 6:37:07 GMT -5
The challenge for the MPSF teams is that they only have 4 free dates to schedule out of conference matches. The MIVA has an advantage regarding cross conference play with significantly more open dates and easier travel options. If the MPSF was to break into 2 conferences to improve their RPI and allow more out-of-conference play, the losers could very well be the likes of UCSD and Cal Baptist. If you didn't have to play them for league play, would you skip them and instead schedule a stronger opponent to boost your RPI? Look what happened to Hawaii's RPI ranking after playing and beating UCSD twice. Dropped from 1st to 4th. And talk about unintended consequences, the current RPI structure driving a MPSF split could ultimately end men's volleyball at those bottom MPSF schools. MPSF- UCLA, Pepperdine, USC, BYU, UCSD, Stanford Big West- Hawaii, UCSB, UCI, Cal Baptist, CSUN, LBSU Allows teams the ability to schedule more OOC games.....allows those conferences to play cross games that would be considered OOC. Could help with a teams RPI. Gives teams the ability to schedule more games against mid west and Carolina schools. Give each conference an auto bid and cause all five conferences to battle for the only at large bid. Or expand the NCAA tourney to 8. The split could cause teams like UCSD and Cal Baptist to get with the program and play up.....if not....the ball is in their court. And it may just may entice other schools on the west coast to start etablishing mvb programs knowing that they may just have a chance at building a program and getting to the NCAAs one day. You could accomplish the same thing by splitting the MPSF into 2 divisions (like they had in the early 2000's). You would play twice against the teams in your division, once against the teams in the other division. With the current 12 teams conference, you would have 16 conference matches (as opposed to the current 22). This would leave a number of open dates to schedule non-conference matches.
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