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Post by ucsdfan on Feb 10, 2016 15:36:39 GMT -5
I have a hypothetical situation here. Let's say you were trying to get a roster together for a small (D2) school with a total enrollment of 1035 students. Let's say your tuition was $26,664 according to scholarshare.com. You want to get good reasonably fast. Would it be probable, even with 4.5 athletic scholarships, to have six foreign players as starters plus another starter from an island 6000 miles away? How hard would it be to make this happen, given the small size of the school, a seemingly limited athletic budget associated with D2, and such a small student population?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2016 16:04:11 GMT -5
"Hypothetical"? lol anyway I think this would be very difficult. Without being able to qualify for scholarships or federal aid, the international players would most likely need full scholarships. I'm not well versed with the international scene, but the vast majority just can't afford it without full scholarships. With only 4.5 scholarships (and if this is a small D2 school I doubt they have the full 4.5) I just don't see being able to bring in that many internationals.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2016 16:23:25 GMT -5
There are plenty of questions that would need to be answered before coming to a decision..does the school have strict admissions criteria, can the school give academic scholarships to international students, are the majors offered something that international students can get back home, or are they unique, etc. I am sure that there are a few other questions that could be formulated, but this is "hypothetical."
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butterpiper
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Post by butterpiper on Feb 10, 2016 16:35:06 GMT -5
Hypothetically, if this hypothetical school had a hypothetical ocean view and other hypothetically gorgeous features, it would be in demand internationally if it had a better sports reputation, a solid financial athletic foundation, fans that cared, and supportive student body who would vote for D1 transition, hypothetically.
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Post by ucsdfan on Feb 10, 2016 19:03:13 GMT -5
Hypothetically, it is about 30 miles to a canal that leads out to the Atlantic Ocean. Hypothetically, the estimated cost for students (including the $26,664 tuition) is $41,170. Hypothetically, for 215 incoming freshman (including four freshman starters), the average grant in aid is $17,841. Hypothetically, let's say the school also fields a mens basketball team, a mens baseball team, a mens cross country team, a mens golf team, a mens soccer team, a mens tennis team, and a mens track and field team. They may also have matching womens sports. I just don't see how a school could pull that off, hypothetically.
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Post by jcvball22 on Feb 10, 2016 19:26:16 GMT -5
Hypothetically, it is about 30 miles to a canal that leads out to the Atlantic Ocean. Hypothetically, the estimated cost for students (including the $26,664 tuition) is $41,170. Hypothetically, for 215 incoming freshman (including four freshman starters), the average grant in aid is $17,841. Hypothetically, let's say the school also fields a mens basketball team, a mens baseball team, a mens cross country team, a mens golf team, a mens soccer team, a mens tennis team, and a mens track and field team. They may also have matching womens sports. I just don't see how a school could pull that off, hypothetically. Because that isn't necessarily how financial aid works, especially if it is a private school. While international students don't qualify for federal loans and aid, depending on the school, there can be merit based scholarship available and a separate pool of financial aid for international students from the institution. Depending on the goals of the admissions office and the school, there can be institutional aid, in the form of merit-based aid, available for an international student based on academics, TOEFL exams, and portfolios of work, just like a normal student. Receiving aid in that form could cut the cost of school dramatically, especially if the kid is a good student.
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Post by ucsdfan on Feb 10, 2016 19:53:52 GMT -5
Because that isn't necessarily how financial aid works, especially if it is a private school. While international students don't qualify for federal loans and aid, depending on the school, there can be merit based scholarship available and a separate pool of financial aid for international students from the institution. Depending on the goals of the admissions office and the school, there can be institutional aid, in the form of merit-based aid, available for an international student based on academics, TOEFL exams, and portfolios of work, just like a normal student. Receiving aid in that form could cut the cost of school dramatically, especially if the kid is a good student. Hypothetically, the numbers would still not add up. If a school had 1035 students and 215 freshman and suppoerted 14 atheletic teams, then it's safe to assume that at least 25% are athletes. The cost to import players from abroad, even if you juggled the source of the money and called it merit-based aid, would skyrocket beyond the school's coffers rather quickly. It just seems really hard to figure how this could be done without all sorts of money coming from mysterious sources. On an unrelated note, once upon a time in the hills of Utah, a mens volleyball team had a rather large number of foreign players (more than 4.5) and some folks at the NCAA headquarters found the accounting and recruiting to not be in line with their standards. Said mountain school receieved a penalty for their minor infraction, and has not overloaded their roster with that many foreign players since that time. So if a hypothetical team were to have let's say a senior transfer from France at OH, a junior setter from Italy, and a sophomore MB from Australia and then add a freshman OH from Serbia, a freshman opposite from Greece, and a freshman middle from New Zealand it would seem to be at risk for the same inspection that the previously mentioned team from the hills of Utah received.
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Post by jcvball22 on Feb 10, 2016 20:06:59 GMT -5
Because that isn't necessarily how financial aid works, especially if it is a private school. While international students don't qualify for federal loans and aid, depending on the school, there can be merit based scholarship available and a separate pool of financial aid for international students from the institution. Depending on the goals of the admissions office and the school, there can be institutional aid, in the form of merit-based aid, available for an international student based on academics, TOEFL exams, and portfolios of work, just like a normal student. Receiving aid in that form could cut the cost of school dramatically, especially if the kid is a good student. Hypothetically, the numbers would still not add up. If a school had 1035 students and 215 freshman and suppoerted 14 atheletic teams, then it's safe to assume that at least 25% are athletes. The cost to import players from abroad, even if you juggled the source of the money and called it merit-based aid, would skyrocket beyond the school's coffers rather quickly. It just seems really hard to figure how this could be done without all sorts of money coming from mysterious sources. On an unrelated note, once upon a time in the hills of Utah, a mens volleyball team had a rather large number of foreign players (more than 4.5) and some folks at the NCAA headquarters found the accounting and recruiting to not be in line with their standards. Said mountain school receieved a penalty for their minor infraction, and has not overloaded their roster with that many foreign players since that time. So if a hypothetical team were to have let's say a senior transfer from France at OH, a junior setter from Italy, and a sophomore MB from Australia and then add a freshman OH from Serbia, a freshman opposite from Greece, and a freshman middle from New Zealand it would seem to be at risk for the same inspection that the previously mentioned team from the hills of Utah received. First of all, you're making a few of assumptions: 1. That the student athletes couldn't afford school on their own (which, surprisingly, has not been the case as of late with many international student athletes-- they can afford to pay towards their education). 2. That their athletes weren't cleared through NCAA compliance. BECAUSE of the BYU, Hawaii, and Lewis fiascos, and two vacated National Titles, as well as violations by many other sports, the NCAA clears international students BEFORE they can play and checks all that before certifying the athlete eligible. It used to be done on the back end, now it's done on the front end. That is why you hear of International students that might not be eligible to play (it's happened quite a bit in basketball lately), because they have to be certified before eligible now. That includes the financial aid/scholarship information which is submitted by the compliance department to the NCAA for all student athletes. If something fishy was going on, it's found out fairly quickly (as was the case with UCI just a few years ago).
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Post by ucsdfan on Feb 10, 2016 20:33:09 GMT -5
The incident with Tillie is the most recent, but was that the NCAA looking into it, self-reporting of an issue, or a whistle blower? The fact that no action was taken leads me to believe that it was either minor or that the total scholarship money awarded was based on an incorrect number perhaps prematurely released by the NCAA before they revised their number.
So let's say you are correct about the foreign players having plenty of money to pay for the schools. I contemplated this possibility. What is really hard to reconcile is why two highly talented rich foreign players who are hypothetically carrying their team as true freshman would choose a small school in a location that is likely not high on the Serbian and Greece tourism lists. If you are extremely talented at volleyball and have deep pockets, wouldn't you choose a big name school or a city where you might find more culture? A place like Provo makes sense (three foreign players on the roster), because it's beautiful and there are many people who are bilingual, offering comfort to transitioning foreign players as they arrive in town. Honolulu makes sense (four foreign players on the roster), because the people there are amazing and support their players with fervor and passion. While I am not sure of the demographic breakdown and ethnic diversity of eastern North Carolina, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it is probably less than most of the cities where MPSF teams, MIVA teams, and PSUIVA teams play. The triangle is great, but this hypothetical school is not in the triangle. It seems weird that the other ten MPSF teams collectively have the same number of foreign players as said hypothetical team starts.
You may trust (be a part of) the NCAA to make sure everything is on the up and up, but watching an athlete go though the clearing process personally, I do not share your faith.
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Post by digs4days on Feb 10, 2016 20:43:33 GMT -5
Hypothetically recruit domestic kids and give them those opportunities. Be good fast by being an excellent coach and coaching... Not by recruiting a bunch of "non professional" but actually professional international players. There are so many quality kids that play in the US that don't get opportunities because there are coaches that want to "get good reasonably fast" and go the international route. I am all about diversity but seeing rosters where there are 12 of 13 guys that are international just doesn't sit right with me.
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Post by jcvball22 on Feb 10, 2016 20:48:57 GMT -5
The incident with Tillie is the most recent, but was that the NCAA looking into it, self-reporting of an issue, or a whistle blower? The fact that no action was taken leads me to believe that it was either minor or that the total scholarship money awarded was based on an incorrect number perhaps prematurely released by the NCAA before they revised their number. So let's say you are correct about the foreign players having plenty of money to pay for the schools. I contemplated this possibility. What is really hard to reconcile is why two highly talented rich foreign players who are hypothetically carrying their team as true freshman would choose a small school in a location that is likely not high on the Serbian and Greece tourism lists. If you are extremely talented at volleyball and have deep pockets, wouldn't you choose a big name school or a city where you might find more culture? A place like Provo makes sense (three foreign players on the roster), because it's beautiful and there are many people who are bilingual, offering comfort to transitioning foreign players as they arrive in town. Honolulu makes sense (four foreign players on the roster), because the people there are amazing and support their players with fervor and passion. While I am not sure of the demographic breakdown and ethnic diversity of eastern North Carolina, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it is probably less than most of the cities where MPSF teams, MIVA teams, and PSUIVA teams play. The triangle is great, but this hypothetical school is not in the triangle. It seems weird that the other ten MPSF teams collectively have the same number of foreign players as said hypothetical team starts. You may trust (be a part of) the NCAA to make sure everything is on the up and up, but watching an athlete go though the clearing process personally, I do not share your faith. UCI was self-reported and just because you didn't hear about the sanctions, doesn't mean they didn't have any. They actually lost two full scholarships for two years. You seem to be quite the conspiracy theorist. Maybe the reason those guys picked the school they picked is because that is the coach that recruited them. Or maybe the program has connections overseas in those areas. Or maybe they liked the idea of being the big dog in the program. Your MPSF homerism is obnoxious and your derision towards all other programs is laughable (see: the excessive use of PSUIVA).
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Post by volleyball20102011 on Feb 10, 2016 20:50:26 GMT -5
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Post by ucsdfan on Feb 10, 2016 20:59:48 GMT -5
Hypothetically recruit domestic kids and give them those opportunities. Be good fast by being an excellent coach and coaching... Not by recruiting a bunch of "non professional" but actually professional international players. There are so many quality kids that play in the US that don't get opportunities because there are coaches that want to "get good reasonably fast" and go the international route. I am all about diversity but seeing rosters where there are 12 of 13 guys that are international just doesn't sit right with me. EXACTLY!!!!!!!!
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Post by ucsdfan on Feb 10, 2016 21:19:17 GMT -5
UCI was self-reported and just because you didn't hear about the sanctions, doesn't mean they didn't have any. They actually lost two full scholarships for two years. You seem to be quite the conspiracy theorist. Maybe the reason those guys picked the school they picked is because that is the coach that recruited them. Or maybe the program has connections overseas in those areas. Or maybe they liked the idea of being the big dog in the program. Your MPSF homerism is obnoxious and your derision towards all other programs is laughable (see: the excessive use of PSUIVA). Conspiracy theorist or historian? When teams in the past had six or more foreign players, issues were found. When all of the incidents you just named (Lewis, BYU, Hawai'i, and UCI) involved players from Mexico, Brazil, Cuba, Greece, and France, then yes, I guess I somehow get a bit suspicious of a small school with little name recognition having 7 of their 13 players from other countries, including six starters (and two freshman stars). While you may choose to describe me using a phrase with a bad connotation like "conspiracy theorist", I tend to think the phrase most people with no personal interest would use is "common sense" and "there's probably a fire somewhere below all that smoke." Maybe you are right that a coach in Wilson, North Carolina has ties to New Zealand, Australia, Serbia, France, Italy, Greece, and Puerto Rico. I'm sure that is completely reasonable that a small school would ante up and support a foreign recruiting pipeline for volleyball even though a sport like basesball only has four kids from out of state (all close states) and no foreign players. And no matter who my favorite teams are, I'm not sure how that is relevant in this discussion about a tiny D2 school with so many players from overseas. Once a team other than PSU wins that conference, then maybe it will be time to see it differently. I root every year passionately for a team to bump them off. Harvard gave it a great shot a couple seasons ago. I thought Stearns, Kessell, and Kennedy were going to pull it off the last two years. Hunt and company a few years ago looked like they could do. George Mason fields a strong team year in and year out. This season St Francis has a great leader at setter and strong pin hitting, so maybe they might do it. But until someone does it, calling it the PSUIVA puts the sad reality of disparity in perspective. PSU has a huge advantage with their football money and the fact they host the NCAA finals more than any other school. I have the utmost repsect for Pavlik and his candor. He has built a great dynasty which has produced two starters for Rio. But all of that aside, it's PSU's conference.
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Post by jcvball22 on Feb 11, 2016 2:27:05 GMT -5
UCI was self-reported and just because you didn't hear about the sanctions, doesn't mean they didn't have any. They actually lost two full scholarships for two years. You seem to be quite the conspiracy theorist. Maybe the reason those guys picked the school they picked is because that is the coach that recruited them. Or maybe the program has connections overseas in those areas. Or maybe they liked the idea of being the big dog in the program. Your MPSF homerism is obnoxious and your derision towards all other programs is laughable (see: the excessive use of PSUIVA). Conspiracy theorist or historian? When teams in the past had six or more foreign players, issues were found. When all of the incidents you just named (Lewis, BYU, Hawai'i, and UCI) involved players from Mexico, Brazil, Cuba, Greece, and France, then yes, I guess I somehow get a bit suspicious of a small school with little name recognition having 7 of their 13 players from other countries, including six starters (and two freshman stars). While you may choose to describe me using a phrase with a bad connotation like "conspiracy theorist", I tend to think the phrase most people with no personal interest would use is "common sense" and "there's probably a fire somewhere below all that smoke." Maybe you are right that a coach in Wilson, North Carolina has ties to New Zealand, Australia, Serbia, France, Italy, Greece, and Puerto Rico. I'm sure that is completely reasonable that a small school would ante up and support a foreign recruiting pipeline for volleyball even though a sport like basesball only has four kids from out of state (all close states) and no foreign players. And no matter who my favorite teams are, I'm not sure how that is relevant in this discussion about a tiny D2 school with so many players from overseas. Once a team other than PSU wins that conference, then maybe it will be time to see it differently. I root every year passionately for a team to bump them off. Harvard gave it a great shot a couple seasons ago. I thought Stearns, Kessell, and Kennedy were going to pull it off the last two years. Hunt and company a few years ago looked like they could do. George Mason fields a strong team year in and year out. This season St Francis has a great leader at setter and strong pin hitting, so maybe they might do it. But until someone does it, calling it the PSUIVA puts the sad reality of disparity in perspective. PSU has a huge advantage with their football money and the fact they host the NCAA finals more than any other school. I have the utmost repsect for Pavlik and his candor. He has built a great dynasty which has produced two starters for Rio. But all of that aside, it's PSU's conference. On more than a few occasions, schools in NC have had significant international presence on their roster. Mt Olive, at one point, barely had any American students (with majority of their team hailing from Puerto Rico), but because they didn't make any significant waves no one paid attention. They managed to do it with no NCAA violations. Those schools as a whole, struggle to attract enough applicants and often have international presence due to that. And there is financial aid available for foreign students to boost enrollment numbers. The coaches ties may be to people in those countries (perhaps through the HP pipeline, personal connections, family friends, travel or personal experience, etc). They don't necessarily need to go to any of those countries to recruit. This great thing called the internet allows athletes to exchange emails and video with coaches. There is almost no instate talent for them to draw from in volleyball, as NC does not sponsor boys volleyball at the high school level. There are a few sparse clubs teams, but not much else going on. So they have to go somewhere else to get kids. And they did. As for your supposed "respect" for PSU, your constant bagging on their league (who on more than a few occasions has produced a very solid second place team in George Mason and Princeton at various times), but that was before the second place team got any possibility of recognition. Your "disparity" comments end up sounding like sour grapes from someone who's teams main goal seems to be "Let's not finish last!" on an annual basis.
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