ncvol
High School
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Post by ncvol on Feb 11, 2016 11:14:53 GMT -5
Perhaps Barton is an actual real life situation where the head coach works incredibly hard around the clock to build strong programs with great athletes of character, passion, and skill. It's not uncommon for international players to play in any Division, especially D1/D2. Also let's take a look at the fact that the Barton AD is the former NCAA Compliance Officer (as recently as last year), well known for his diligence in his role.
To echo the sentiment above, there is almost NO local boy's volleyball in NC to draw from, let alone much in the south, so it's necessary to use this aforementioned thing called the internet to find recruits. And when the top US players are getting swept up by big name D1 schools, it's only natural to look for the top players in other countries.
Let's take a look at Lennox's history - since you've quoted as him just being "a coach in Wilson, NC". He's not actually from Wilson, NC -in fact he's from PA with strong ties to Juniata & Penn State. He has a history of building strong programs at different levels of the game. In fact he created the program at Elmira (which is equitable to Wilson), and get them RANKED IN THE NATION in their second year of play.
Is it possible that this is just a really good coach?
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ncvol
High School
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Post by ncvol on Feb 11, 2016 11:51:47 GMT -5
Hypothetically recruit domestic kids and give them those opportunities. Be good fast by being an excellent coach and coaching... Not by recruiting a bunch of "non professional" but actually professional international players. There are so many quality kids that play in the US that don't get opportunities because there are coaches that want to "get good reasonably fast" and go the international route. I am all about diversity but seeing rosters where there are 12 of 13 guys that are international just doesn't sit right with me. So, digs4days, you're saying you'd rather teams 'get good slow'? How is that going to "grow the game"? This isn't little league. For these hypothetical 'quality kids that play in the US that don't get opportunities - there are plenty of D3 schools for them to attend.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2016 12:23:19 GMT -5
Charleston did this. Just like Barton.
When I attended the school, they had 4 international players and 2 were starters. The other 2 got playing time. One left and they added another international starter this year.
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Post by bouncethat on Feb 11, 2016 12:24:12 GMT -5
Hypothetically recruit domestic kids and give them those opportunities. Be good fast by being an excellent coach and coaching... Not by recruiting a bunch of "non professional" but actually professional international players. There are so many quality kids that play in the US that don't get opportunities because there are coaches that want to "get good reasonably fast" and go the international route. I am all about diversity but seeing rosters where there are 12 of 13 guys that are international just doesn't sit right with me. So, digs4days, you're saying you'd rather teams 'get good slow'? How is that going to "grow the game"? This isn't little league. For these hypothetical 'quality kids that play in the US that don't get opportunities - there are plenty of D3 schools for them to attend. Because by recruiting domestically you give more boys from the U.S. chances to play, which increases popularity in the U.S. Having a great team made up of all international kids doesn't grow the game in the U.S. Everyone keeps saying they want the game to grow in the U.S. but until there are more opportunities for kids in college then there just simply won't be any growth. Kids grow up wanting to play a D1 sport and get a scholarship, but if we keep giving these scholarships to international kids then the appeal simply won't be there. I agree that teams should be absolutely allowed one or two international players, they can actually help with popularity because often times they're dang good and exciting to watch. However, a completely international D1-3 team isn't going to help with anything. Recruit the domestic boys that work their butts off for the minuscule amount of scholarships in D1 volleyball, don't discourage volleyball because there "isn't enough opportunities".
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Post by digs4days on Feb 11, 2016 12:59:31 GMT -5
Hypothetically recruit domestic kids and give them those opportunities. Be good fast by being an excellent coach and coaching... Not by recruiting a bunch of "non professional" but actually professional international players. There are so many quality kids that play in the US that don't get opportunities because there are coaches that want to "get good reasonably fast" and go the international route. I am all about diversity but seeing rosters where there are 12 of 13 guys that are international just doesn't sit right with me. So, digs4days, you're saying you'd rather teams 'get good slow'? How is that going to "grow the game"? This isn't little league. For these hypothetical 'quality kids that play in the US that don't get opportunities - there are plenty of D3 schools for them to attend. No, NCVOL, I am simply stating that recruiting professional international players just to get good is in my opinion a dumb concept. How about learning how to recruit and instead of just giving up kids you want and learning how to pull them. Not to mention coaching up kids with talent and potential instead of going the easy way and recruiting professional athletes. There are such limited opportunities out there in the U.S. For boys to continue to play ball in comparison to how many play juniors. Therefore in my opinion it is ridiculous when 12 out of 13 players on a U.S. roster are international. Like I stated before, I am all about diversity and recruiting international players, I am just confident in my belief that there is plenty of quality athletes stateside that get overlooked
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ncvol
High School
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Post by ncvol on Feb 11, 2016 13:17:52 GMT -5
Just to reiterate the sentiment already proved in this thread, they are NOT PROFESSIONAL players, and by trying to breathe life into this rumor you're in fact denigrating these real life 18 year olds who came to the US for great opportunities for education and to play the sport they love - And all the hard work being poured into the program by the school community, coaches, families, staff, and students.
Each athlete, as NCAA regulations require, is cleared on the front end. Not professional, just talented.
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ncvol
High School
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Post by ncvol on Feb 11, 2016 13:21:04 GMT -5
So, digs4days, you're saying you'd rather teams 'get good slow'? How is that going to "grow the game"? This isn't little league. For these hypothetical 'quality kids that play in the US that don't get opportunities - there are plenty of D3 schools for them to attend. Because by recruiting domestically you give more boys from the U.S. chances to play, which increases popularity in the U.S. Having a great team made up of all international kids doesn't grow the game in the U.S. Everyone keeps saying they want the game to grow in the U.S. but until there are more opportunities for kids in college then there just simply won't be any growth. Kids grow up wanting to play a D1 sport and get a scholarship, but if we keep giving these scholarships to international kids then the appeal simply won't be there. I agree that teams should be absolutely allowed one or two international players, they can actually help with popularity because often times they're dang good and exciting to watch. However, a completely international D1-3 team isn't going to help with anything. Recruit the domestic boys that work their butts off for the minuscule amount of scholarships in D1 volleyball, don't discourage volleyball because there "isn't enough opportunities". I appreciate the point you make about increasing popularity of the game in the US. I'm simply replying because this thread was started to cultivate an unfounded rumor that Barton is operating under NCAA violation, which, of course it is not. The NCAA sets no limits on where student-athletes can come from, and I'm simply trying to drive home the fact that Barton is playing fair and square.
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ncvol
High School
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Post by ncvol on Feb 11, 2016 13:25:15 GMT -5
So, digs4days, you're saying you'd rather teams 'get good slow'? How is that going to "grow the game"? This isn't little league. For these hypothetical 'quality kids that play in the US that don't get opportunities - there are plenty of D3 schools for them to attend. No, NCVOL, I am simply stating that recruiting professional international players just to get good is in my opinion a dumb concept. How about learning how to recruit and instead of just giving up kids you want and learning how to pull them. Not to mention coaching up kids with talent and potential instead of going the easy way and recruiting professional athletes. There are such limited opportunities out there in the U.S. For boys to continue to play ball in comparison to how many play juniors. Therefore in my opinion it is ridiculous when 12 out of 13 players on a U.S. roster are international. Like I stated before, I am all about diversity and recruiting international players, I am just confident in my belief that there is plenty of quality athletes stateside that get overlooked I'm confused as to why you assume these kids arrived at Barton as skilled as they are. Any student-athlete at any level doesn't arrive to campus as a finished product. You're completely discounting their coaches and the way the develop team systems, culture, and individual athletes. Not to mention, Lennox is also the head coach of the women's program, which has excelled as fast as the men's program since he arrived in 2012, with 16 rostered women, only 2 of which are international.
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Post by digs4days on Feb 11, 2016 13:48:11 GMT -5
No, NCVOL, I am simply stating that recruiting professional international players just to get good is in my opinion a dumb concept. How about learning how to recruit and instead of just giving up kids you want and learning how to pull them. Not to mention coaching up kids with talent and potential instead of going the easy way and recruiting professional athletes. There are such limited opportunities out there in the U.S. For boys to continue to play ball in comparison to how many play juniors. Therefore in my opinion it is ridiculous when 12 out of 13 players on a U.S. roster are international. Like I stated before, I am all about diversity and recruiting international players, I am just confident in my belief that there is plenty of quality athletes stateside that get overlooked I'm confused as to why you assume these kids arrived at Barton as skilled as they are. Any student-athlete at any level doesn't arrive to campus as a finished product. You're completely discounting their coaches and the way the develop team systems, culture, and individual athletes. Not to mention, Lennox is also the head coach of the women's program, which has excelled as fast as the men's program since he arrived in 2012, with 16 rostered women, only 2 of which are international. Wait a sec... I am confused now.... I never in any post that I stated mentioned anything about Barton or their coaches. In fact my opinion doesn't even come from what Barton has done but what other teams that I know of have done. I do not know Barton's coaches or program so I cannot speak directly to that. I am purely stating that going a pure international roster doesn't sit right with me and I do not find that to be a positive. If you take that as an attack on Barton then that's on you but it's definitely not what I stated. I am purely stating that growing the game in the U.S. should stem from recruiting domestic kids. Just because clearly you have a tie to Barton and you take this as an attack doesn't mean it was one
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Post by volleyball20102011 on Feb 11, 2016 14:47:08 GMT -5
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Post by ucsdfan on Feb 11, 2016 15:30:48 GMT -5
Perhaps Barton is an actual real life situation where the head coach works incredibly hard around the clock to build strong programs with great athletes of character, passion, and skill. It's not uncommon for international players to play in any Division, especially D1/D2. Also let's take a look at the fact that the Barton AD is the former NCAA Compliance Officer (as recently as last year), well known for his diligence in his role. To echo the sentiment above, there is almost NO local boy's volleyball in NC to draw from, let alone much in the south, so it's necessary to use this aforementioned thing called the internet to find recruits. And when the top US players are getting swept up by big name D1 schools, it's only natural to look for the top players in other countries. Let's take a look at Lennox's history - since you've quoted as him just being "a coach in Wilson, NC". He's not actually from Wilson, NC -in fact he's from PA with strong ties to Juniata & Penn State. He has a history of building strong programs at different levels of the game. In fact he created the program at Elmira (which is equitable to Wilson), and get them RANKED IN THE NATION in their second year of play. Is it possible that this is just a really good coach? First and foremost, welcome to volleytalk. I sincerely hope that after this thread dies down in a few days that you'll make this a place to visit on a regular basis. We can use help growing the fan base of the men's college game. I assume based on your moniker and the timing of your joining volleytalk, that you are in touch with and involved in the mens college game in North Carolina and the CC. You have insights many of us don't have. I have absolutely no doubt that every mens college volleyball coach works very hard to build their program, Jeff Lennox and his assistant Ladislav Lelkes (former player from Slovakia before joining the staff) included. It's a combination of pride and survival to do so. With new programs like the schools in the CC, there is a pressure to establish a strong program with a winning record. To do so, it means getting the best talent you can land from wherever you can. This explains why the CC has more foreign players than all of the other conferences combined. Every school in the conference except North Greenville and Belmont Abbey starts at least one foreign player (many with two and couple with three). But even in that environment, Barton stands out, They have more foreign players (7) than allowed athletic scholarships (4.5). When a team hits that five or more foreign player plateau, it seems that a flag should always go up. To pull that off requires at least one foreign player either paying a big chunk of money or a scholarship from some other area landing in their lap. Let's say it's merit-based. I don't doubt some of these kids are brilliant, but I am well aware that we have many brilliant kids in this country who don't end up with the amount of money involved here. The burning desire to win comes with an ethical question: what is the purpose of college in our society? Beyond that, what is the purpose of a religious-based college in our society? Lennox appears to have used his PA connection to land transfers from Elmira College as well as local kids such as Chad Stanback and Ben Kasun. They were on the roster last year (sophomore and freshman respectively), but I can't find them on the roster this year. His roster also had two Florida kids last year (Michael Perez and Jonathan Novoa-Miralles) who don't seem to find the court this season (despite Novoa-Miralles starting off very strong last season). This to me sounds like a culture and philosophy shift in the program that does not bode well for domestic kids. So as a fan of the game I can;t help but wonder how out of all the colleges sponsoring D1 and D2 volleyball, Barton has mangaed to land so many foreing players. I appreciate the point you make about increasing popularity of the game in the US. I'm simply replying because this thread was started to cultivate an unfounded rumor that Barton is operating under NCAA violation, which, of course it is not. The NCAA sets no limits on where student-athletes can come from, and I'm simply trying to drive home the fact that Barton is playing fair and square. As the thread starter, it was not to cultivate any such rumor. It was to get an answer to a simple question: "How does a small Christian school with a student body of 1035 to go with a $26,664 tuition price tag (not to mention cost of living) manage to attract and afford seven foreign players on their roster when no other college (including ones with BCS money) have that many? It has evoved into what it has. I still cannot figure out the accounting associated with this. No compliance question was asked, although you volunteered that a former committee member serves as the Barton AD. While you see this as perhaps support for whatever it is you wish to support, I see it as the AD having unique insight how to operate within the rule book while stockpiling more foreign talent than any other school. I'm confused as to why you assume these kids arrived at Barton as skilled as they are. Any student-athlete at any level doesn't arrive to campus as a finished product. You're completely discounting their coaches and the way the develop team systems, culture, and individual athletes. Not to mention, Lennox is also the head coach of the women's program, which has excelled as fast as the men's program since he arrived in 2012, with 16 rostered women, only 2 of which are international. If someone else typed that as an answer to your question, wouldn't you roll your eyes and laugh a bit? I know you are going to respond with a "no", but in your heart fo hearst you know you wouldn't buy into the "miracle of great coaching" as an explanation to why a freshman was the team star from the opening match on. Any older successful coach with job security will be the first to admit that talent wins. You can draw up strategies and game plans, but in the end, 95% of the time the team with better talent beats the team with lesser talent. Madalaris and Brkovic arrived with amazing resumes and extreme talent, so please do not try to convince anyone that a few months with Lennox and Lelkes is the main reason they are dominating. I doubt Knipe will tell you that two months with his scheme is why DeFalco is dominant. Speraw is not going to say that Ma'a was only able to take over as the team's go-to player because of polishing and coaching in the Fall at UCLA. So back to the real questions. With 4.5 athletic scholarships, how can 7 foreign players manage to cover an estimated $40+K per year? How has Barton managed to do what no other D1 or D2 team has been able to do in stocking up that many foreign players? On a different note, what happened to Chad Stanback and Ben Kasun?
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Post by volleyball20102011 on Feb 11, 2016 15:38:02 GMT -5
Perhaps Barton is an actual real life situation where the head coach works incredibly hard around the clock to build strong programs with great athletes of character, passion, and skill. It's not uncommon for international players to play in any Division, especially D1/D2. Also let's take a look at the fact that the Barton AD is the former NCAA Compliance Officer (as recently as last year), well known for his diligence in his role. So back to the real questions. With 4.5 athletic scholarships, how can 7 foreign players manage to cover an estimated $40+K per year? How has Barton managed to do what no other D1 or D2 team has been able to do in stocking up that many foreign players? Except if you look at my post above...we've got 2-4 OTHER schools that have also gone foreign with their recruiting. My question is, why pick on Barton?
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Post by ucsdfan on Feb 11, 2016 15:44:26 GMT -5
Interesting addition here. Personally I see it as a question of how do Mt Olive (tuition $17,800 with an enrollment of 3406) and Erskine (tuition $33,315 with an enrollment of 591) do it?
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Post by ucsdfan on Feb 11, 2016 15:50:24 GMT -5
Except if you look at my post above...we've got 2-4 OTHER schools that have also gone foreign with their recruiting. My question is, why pick on Barton? Valid question. Barton came across the radar because of the fact they have 6 of 7 starters from foreign countires. The other schools did not pop up, because a good number of their foreign players do not see the court and thus didn't get noticed. So now the question is how the three schools with 8, 8, and 7 foreign players, large tutitions, and small enrollments manage to do it? The math doesn't seem to add up. Again, if I'm a rich foreign high school kid with enough volleyball talent to make a D2 roster (possibly even D1), wouldn't I want to go to a city with some cultural support? If I'm not rich, then I'll where they make it chepaest (possibly free) to attend. How can a small school ante up enough money?
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Post by Seltzer Water on Feb 11, 2016 16:58:02 GMT -5
I'm confused as to why you assume these kids arrived at Barton as skilled as they are. Any student-athlete at any level doesn't arrive to campus as a finished product. You're completely discounting their coaches and the way the develop team systems, culture, and individual athletes. Not to mention, Lennox is also the head coach of the women's program, which has excelled as fast as the men's program since he arrived in 2012, with 16 rostered women, only 2 of which are international. If someone else typed that as an answer to your question, wouldn't you roll your eyes and laugh a bit? I know you are going to respond with a "no", but in your heart fo hearst you know you wouldn't buy into the "miracle of great coaching" as an explanation to why a freshman was the team star from the opening match on. Any older successful coach with job security will be the first to admit that talent wins. You can draw up strategies and game plans, but in the end, 95% of the time the team with better talent beats the team with lesser talent. Madalaris and Brkovic arrived with amazing resumes and extreme talent, so please do not try to convince anyone that a few months with Lennox and Lelkes is the main reason they are dominating. I doubt Knipe will tell you that two months with his scheme is why DeFalco is dominant. Speraw is not going to say that Ma'a was only able to take over as the team's go-to player because of polishing and coaching in the Fall at UCLA. So back to the real questions. With 4.5 athletic scholarships, how can 7 foreign players manage to cover an estimated $40+K per year? How has Barton managed to do what no other D1 or D2 team has been able to do in stocking up that many foreign players? On a different note, what happened to Chad Stanback and Ben Kasun? From personal experience, most of the Div 1 and 2 schools do not show interest to the most international players and some of them do not even open the emails. So why is it so suspicious for the foreign players to choose the college that answered them, showed them interest, offered them a satisfying scholarship( academic and maybe athletic) instead of choosing a college that was hardly answering the emails or showing interest and I do not even write about the scholarship part. Furthermore, most of the big teams have got at around 20 players .So why would an international athlete with big dreams chooses to go to a college that gives him the opportunity to play from the first year and not go to a big school that he may never play?Scrath your head a little bit.
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