cadf
Sophomore
Posts: 142
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Post by cadf on Feb 11, 2016 18:47:30 GMT -5
Interesting addition here. Personally I see it as a question of how do Mt Olive (tuition $17,800 with an enrollment of 3406) and Erskine (tuition $33,315 with an enrollment of 591) do it? Small private schools have money set aside for certain merit based scholarships, and they aren't necessarily all grade based.
4.5 scholarships. 9 players could get 1/2 paid by athletics and easily 1/4 or more paid by other sources. With the smaller rosters these schools carry, I could see how they would be able to do it.
That being said, I think it is not good for US boys volleyball growth to have CC teams with this many international players. The kids that are from a US club that don't see the court now go home for the summer and have no means of inspiring other kids in their local clubs to continue to grow in the sport.
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Post by ucsdfan on Feb 11, 2016 19:23:33 GMT -5
From personal experience, most of the Div 1 and 2 schools do not show interest to the most international players and some of them do not even open the emails. So why is it so suspicious for the foreign players to choose the college that answered them, showed them interest, offered them a satisfying scholarship( academic and maybe athletic) instead of choosing a college that was hardly answering the emails or showing interest and I do not even write about the scholarship part. Furthermore, most of the big teams have got at around 20 players .So why would an international athlete with big dreams chooses to go to a college that gives him the opportunity to play from the first year and not go to a big school that he may never play?Scrath your head a little bit. I can definitely buy that not all of the D1 schools respond to the emails they get, both domestic and foreign. They likely respond based on (1) positional need and (2) the talent level. I'm sure Umlauft got emails back so fast it seemed like IM. I have to believe that Kelchev and Tilburg were coveted this past recruiting season. Players like Hershko, Zarkovic, Rivera, Szerszen, and Beltran likewise had multiple suitors. But I'm sure part of the reason some emails are not returned is because the budget doesn't allot for expensive players on the roster, especially at public schools. How UCI could afford Tillie, Hershko, Hodges, and Frazzoni over the past few years seems puzzling, but that's over a six year span. I can't imagine how the budget could allot for seven or eight foreign students at once. So no response from certain schools makes sense. Which is what makes the CC's reliance on foreign players so interesting. The coach connection has been brought up, and that certainly accounts for a player or two on some rosters. But the CC has so many foreign players that someone has to take notice. One post here pointed out that those schools struggle in general to get students, so they turn to foreign applicants. With such small student bodies, I would assume they could fill their seats from domestic applications, but when you add in the price tag it makes sense they need to expand their target area. Which comes back to the original question. How can small schools with large tuition afford this? No matter how it is listed on the books (academic scholarships, religious scholarships, and athletic scholarships), you need the money to cover this. For all the money passed out at certain CC schools for mens volleyball players, what kid didn't get as much assistance? For every foreign player who sits on a bench, was there a domestic player who coveted that spot? I'm certain there was. It's up to the AD and coach at these schools to do as they wish (maybe the school president has a say too), but it seems like a house of cards in terms of costs for a non-revenue generating sport. The push to win the CC and get recognition for the school seems to come at a steep price. Barton starting six foreign players is such an anomoly that it has to be noticed. With all of the NCAA compliance in order, it doesn't seem fiscally wise for a small college to take on such a high cost.
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Post by jcvball22 on Feb 11, 2016 19:30:56 GMT -5
Small private schools have money set aside for certain merit based scholarships, and they aren't necessarily all grade based.
4.5 scholarships. 9 players could get 1/2 paid by athletics and easily 1/4 or more paid by other sources. With the smaller rosters these schools carry, I could see how they would be able to do it.
That being said, I think it is not good for US boys volleyball growth to have CC teams with this many international players. The kids that are from a US club that don't see the court now go home for the summer and have no means of inspiring other kids in their local clubs to continue to grow in the sport.
This has been explained to the OP more than once. He doesn't seem to grasp how financial aid works. And can only starters encourage other kids to play? I think this can work in both ways, where the influx of international students raises the level of play to a point where more American kids want to play. There are quite a few DI programs that carry enormous rosters of kids (and just a few years ago UCLA was carrying nearly 40, with only about half really doing much), because there is a stigma that there are only a few schools worth playing at. So these schools bring in talent, train them well and increase the level of play, start traveling so other areas of the country can see them and they start generating interest in their school.
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Post by ucsdfan on Feb 11, 2016 22:35:23 GMT -5
This has been explained to the OP more than once. He doesn't seem to grasp how financial aid works. And can only starters encourage other kids to play? I think this can work in both ways, where the influx of international students raises the level of play to a point where more American kids want to play. There are quite a few DI programs that carry enormous rosters of kids (and just a few years ago UCLA was carrying nearly 40, with only about half really doing much), because there is a stigma that there are only a few schools worth playing at. So these schools bring in talent, train them well and increase the level of play, start traveling so other areas of the country can see them and they start generating interest in their school. Actually just the opposite my friend. I know all TOO well how financial aid works. I doubt you have any idea how much behinds the scenes BS there is in allocations and accounting, at least at certain public schools. Sit through a public school budget meeting one day and then and only then will you understand the phrase of "creative accounting". I really don't want to be rude, but I'm not sure you grasp basic math and accounting. I've read your posts before and believe you are very wise in game logistics and the coaching fraternity. But math seems to have eluded you. No matter how you distribute money and what "account" you say it's coming from, the basic rule is that if payables exceed receivables, then you will not last. Based just on seven foreign players you need $41,000 x 7 = $287,000. Assuming just your foreign players get the 4.5 scholaraships your athletic budget needs to generate $184,500 for scholarships. That does not count the coach salary, travel and housing, facilities fees, insurance, uniforms, equipment, etc... With a tiny alumni network and no public funds, you better hope the program has a sugar daddy with deep pockets. On top of that, there are seven other players on the team that need to collectively have $287,000. Add this to the remaining $102,500 for the foreign players and you have $389,500 to cover. Maybe your 9.5 players can cover $20,000 eac, leaving you to find $199,500 in merit-based scholarships. That money has to come from somewhere, and you can absolutely guarantee that it will be at the expense of another kid with genuine need. So the school has a decision to make: scholar or athlete? In this economy, that decision is being made at every university. At a small private school it would be hard to fathom that there is a large enoguh endowment to generate interest and dividends that could provide the average student with $17,000 is assistance ($17,595,000 total). To have a base principle to generate that interest (at 4% gain), every living alumni (about 10,350 for the last 40 years) would need to contribute $42,500 each. On top of that money, you have to get those same alumni to donate for the arts, the school's infrastructure, growth, and other athletic teams. In case it's not clear yet, it doesn't add up. To afford six foreign starters, it gets very expensive. How can Barton, Mt Olive, or Erskine do this? Plase don't respond with a condescending comment about not grasping financial aid. Instead, please explain to me how you propose to finance this venture.
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Post by ucsdfan on Feb 11, 2016 22:41:28 GMT -5
And for what it's worth, even under Scates, the 'behind the curtain' only went one court (two sides) deep. There were never "nearly 40" kids in the program even with redshirts. His roster maxed at 26 in the years I've watched (and that's a lot). If you'dlike to specifically list something higher than that number, please cite the reference. Right now Quincy is the winner of the oversized roster award at 27.
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Post by gr8hands on Feb 11, 2016 23:07:16 GMT -5
Small private schools have money set aside for certain merit based scholarships, and they aren't necessarily all grade based.
4.5 scholarships. 9 players could get 1/2 paid by athletics and easily 1/4 or more paid by other sources. With the smaller rosters these schools carry, I could see how they would be able to do it.
That being said, I think it is not good for US boys volleyball growth to have CC teams with this many international players. The kids that are from a US club that don't see the court now go home for the summer and have no means of inspiring other kids in their local clubs to continue to grow in the sport.
What I find interesting is how poorly most of these schools recruit. We're one of the closest clubs to alot of them and rarely hear a peep. Looking at their rosters, now I know why.
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Post by jcvball22 on Feb 11, 2016 23:11:33 GMT -5
And for what it's worth, even under Scates, the 'behind the curtain' only went one court (two sides) deep. There were never "nearly 40" kids in the program even with redshirts. His roster maxed at 26 in the years I've watched (and that's a lot). If you'dlike to specifically list something higher than that number, please cite the reference. Right now Quincy is the winner of the oversized roster award at 27. When the current coaches arrived, there were 38 guys training. That came directly from the staff.
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Post by jcvball22 on Feb 11, 2016 23:17:08 GMT -5
This has been explained to the OP more than once. He doesn't seem to grasp how financial aid works. And can only starters encourage other kids to play? I think this can work in both ways, where the influx of international students raises the level of play to a point where more American kids want to play. There are quite a few DI programs that carry enormous rosters of kids (and just a few years ago UCLA was carrying nearly 40, with only about half really doing much), because there is a stigma that there are only a few schools worth playing at. So these schools bring in talent, train them well and increase the level of play, start traveling so other areas of the country can see them and they start generating interest in their school. Actually just the opposite my friend. I know all TOO well how financial aid works. I doubt you have any idea how much behinds the scenes BS there is in allocations and accounting, at least at certain public schools. Sit through a public school budget meeting one day and then and only then will you understand the phrase of "creative accounting". I really don't want to be rude, but I'm not sure you grasp basic math and accounting. I've read your posts before and believe you are very wise in game logistics and the coaching fraternity. But math seems to have eluded you. No matter how you distribute money and what "account" you say it's coming from, the basic rule is that if payables exceed receivables, then you will not last. Based just on seven foreign players you need $41,000 x 7 = $287,000. Assuming just your foreign players get the 4.5 scholaraships your athletic budget needs to generate $184,500 for scholarships. That does not count the coach salary, travel and housing, facilities fees, insurance, uniforms, equipment, etc... With a tiny alumni network and no public funds, you better hope the program has a sugar daddy with deep pockets. On top of that, there are seven other players on the team that need to collectively have $287,000. Add this to the remaining $102,500 for the foreign players and you have $389,500 to cover. Maybe your 9.5 players can cover $20,000 eac, leaving you to find $199,500 in merit-based scholarships. That money has to come from somewhere, and you can absolutely guarantee that it will be at the expense of another kid with genuine need. So the school has a decision to make: scholar or athlete? In this economy, that decision is being made at every university. At a small private school it would be hard to fathom that there is a large enoguh endowment to generate interest and dividends that could provide the average student with $17,000 is assistance ($17,595,000 total). To have a base principle to generate that interest (at 4% gain), every living alumni (about 10,350 for the last 40 years) would need to contribute $42,500 each. On top of that money, you have to get those same alumni to donate for the arts, the school's infrastructure, growth, and other athletic teams. In case it's not clear yet, it doesn't add up. To afford six foreign starters, it gets very expensive. How can Barton, Mt Olive, or Erskine do this? Plase don't respond with a condescending comment about not grasping financial aid. Instead, please explain to me how you propose to finance this venture. These are private schools. Their financing is often FAR better than public schools. The price tags are higher, but the discount rates make the schools competitive, and sometimes cheaper than a public school. I spent 9 years working in higher education, in both public and private schools, and worked with financial aid. So, I have a fairly solid grasp of how this works. Money for financial aid does not all come from dividends on endowment, so all your math was pointless.
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Post by Semp12 on Feb 12, 2016 10:51:40 GMT -5
Actually just the opposite my friend. I know all TOO well how financial aid works. I doubt you have any idea how much behinds the scenes BS there is in allocations and accounting, at least at certain public schools. Sit through a public school budget meeting one day and then and only then will you understand the phrase of "creative accounting". I really don't want to be rude, but I'm not sure you grasp basic math and accounting. I've read your posts before and believe you are very wise in game logistics and the coaching fraternity. But math seems to have eluded you. No matter how you distribute money and what "account" you say it's coming from, the basic rule is that if payables exceed receivables, then you will not last. Based just on seven foreign players you need $41,000 x 7 = $287,000. Assuming just your foreign players get the 4.5 scholaraships your athletic budget needs to generate $184,500 for scholarships. That does not count the coach salary, travel and housing, facilities fees, insurance, uniforms, equipment, etc... With a tiny alumni network and no public funds, you better hope the program has a sugar daddy with deep pockets. On top of that, there are seven other players on the team that need to collectively have $287,000. Add this to the remaining $102,500 for the foreign players and you have $389,500 to cover. Maybe your 9.5 players can cover $20,000 eac, leaving you to find $199,500 in merit-based scholarships. That money has to come from somewhere, and you can absolutely guarantee that it will be at the expense of another kid with genuine need. So the school has a decision to make: scholar or athlete? In this economy, that decision is being made at every university. At a small private school it would be hard to fathom that there is a large enoguh endowment to generate interest and dividends that could provide the average student with $17,000 is assistance ($17,595,000 total). To have a base principle to generate that interest (at 4% gain), every living alumni (about 10,350 for the last 40 years) would need to contribute $42,500 each. On top of that money, you have to get those same alumni to donate for the arts, the school's infrastructure, growth, and other athletic teams. In case it's not clear yet, it doesn't add up. To afford six foreign starters, it gets very expensive. How can Barton, Mt Olive, or Erskine do this? Plase don't respond with a condescending comment about not grasping financial aid. Instead, please explain to me how you propose to finance this venture. These are private schools. Their financing is often FAR better than public schools. The price tags are higher, but the discount rates make the schools competitive, and sometimes cheaper than a public school. I spent 9 years working in higher education, in both public and private schools, and worked with financial aid. So, I have a fairly solid grasp of how this works. Money for financial aid does not all come from dividends on endowment, so all your math was pointless. Agree with JCvball22.. Your math makes sense when you are talking about a university that can fill their seats, so an athlete paying below the price tag is seen as a negative (or loss for the school since they could have made full cost off them). When you are talking about a school that cannot fill their seats, and athletics a driving factor in enrollment, each kid added that can pay their ideal price (tuition-average discount rate) is a positive for the school. Most likely they are looking for an average of X dollars per kid, so as long as they get it, they don't care how it happens. On the international vs. domestic topic.. these CC schools just aren't stealing talent from PSU, Ohio State, or any of the name brand D1 schools, period. Even if they managed to get one highly sought after recruit that can't compete with 15+. The only way they can realistically have a shot of competing with the name brand schools is by going international.
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